Advice and experts with 400 series Cessnas (414 and 421), purchase and training

wrote:

Someone was telling me that the hull portion was the least portion of
the premium.

The cost of the hull premium varies with the value of the plane, so that person
might be correct. For something like an Ercoupe. I have my plane insured for a
hull value of $60,000, and the hull premium is by far the largest portion of the
bill.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

wrote in message
news:1104443885.3fb6f23b35455ac79c342aee9241e5cd@t eranews...

Wow, in one brief post you managed to contain at least three of the great
flamewar topics- insurance, relative safety of twins, and real operating
costs. Not bad!

I am trying to map out how I want to proceed going to the next step. I
want to get my instrument rating, and possibly multi (which, of course
I'd do, if I went for a twin).

Since it makes sense to get your rating in a plane you own, and the
400-series Cessna are terrible for this type of work (hell on the engines)
I'd look to buy something to get the rating in and then build some time in
before stepping up. You may even find the step-up unnecessary as many people
overestimate what they really need. A light twin like a Seminole or Aztec
might be a good choice, since the smaller engines won't eat you alive on
costs and it's docile enough to be a good training platform, but you're
building multi time which will help you when time comes to insure something
bigger. I just don't see making the step-up from a low-time 182 pilot to a
400 series right away.

As for insurance, I'd look for a pilot with lots of hours in type to
add as first insured. The best case would be to find a CFII, MEI that
would want time in type, could train me in my plane until I'm ready
and have enough time in type, and could use my plane part of the time.

If you were near Boston I'd have the guy for you. Ask the owners of those
421's you've seen who they use. Quite often the best CFIs are not the ones
hanging around the flight school waiting for students to walk in the door.

Best,
-cwk.

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 16:59:13 GMT, "Colin W Kingsbury"
wrote:


wrote in message
news:1104443885.3fb6f23b35455ac79c342aee9241e5cd@ teranews...

Wow, in one brief post you managed to contain at least three of the great
flamewar topics- insurance, relative safety of twins, and real operating
costs. Not bad!

Heh heh.

Since it makes sense to get your rating in a plane you own, and the
400-series Cessna are terrible for this type of work (hell on the engines)
I'd look to buy something to get the rating in and then build some time in
before stepping up. You may even find the step-up unnecessary as many people
overestimate what they really need. A light twin like a Seminole or Aztec
might be a good choice, since the smaller engines won't eat you alive on
costs and it's docile enough to be a good training platform, but you're
building multi time which will help you when time comes to insure something
bigger. I just don't see making the step-up from a low-time 182 pilot to a
400 series right away.

I had a talk with a local A/P who specializes in 421s. He gave me a
lot of good info, including the point that I should not to my multi in
a 421. The club I'm in has a Piper Seminole and Seneca II. I might get
my multi in the Seminole, get a checkout in the Seneca, and fly only
twins until I buy. I'm sure that would save a 421s engines unnecessary
wear and tear, and I'd be building muti time.


If you were near Boston I'd have the guy for you. Ask the owners of those
421's you've seen who they use. Quite often the best CFIs are not the ones
hanging around the flight school waiting for students to walk in the door.

Yeah, I'll have to do a lot of local searching. The A/P says he knows
someone who does instruction in 421s. He seems to have a lot of
connections relating to that aircraft.

John Szpara
Affordable Satellite
Fiero Owner 2-84 Indy Pace cars, 86 Coupe, 88 Formula 3.4, 88 Coupe, 88GT

wrote in message
news:1104567426.5d42d27af3ddef329bdea5c38f8ade9a@t eranews...

The hull coverage is going to be the largest component of insurance by
far.
On a $400K hull with a low time multi pilot, hull might be 90% of the
total
premium.

I'm looking at 421s in the $150-180k range. There are at least a half
dozen on trade a plane at any one time.


I didn't realize that they were so cheap. I guess that I was thinking of
the C model.

Mike
MU-2

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 16:31:19 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
wrote:


I'm looking at 421s in the $150-180k range. There are at least a half
dozen on trade a plane at any one time.


I didn't realize that they were so cheap. I guess that I was thinking of
the C model.

Mike
MU-2


Yes, A & B models are out there in that range. There was one on Ebay
for $60,000 (below reserve), repeat auction after the last one fell
through, but went for $76,000. I would have gone for that one, but
research showed there were better ones available for less total money
(both engines were near TBO).

John Szpara
Affordable Satellite
Fiero Owner 2-84 Indy Pace cars, 86 Coupe, 88 Formula 3.4, 88 Coupe, 88GT

wrote in message
news:1104567426.5d42d27af3ddef329bdea5c38f8ade9a@t eranews...

The hull coverage is going to be the largest component of insurance by
far.
On a $400K hull with a low time multi pilot, hull might be 90% of the
total
premium.

I'm looking at 421s in the $150-180k range. There are at least a half
dozen on trade a plane at any one time.

Don't go for the 421 or 421A. They both utilized engines that were short
lived and high maintenance. The 421B can use the GTSIO-520-H engine that is
more readily found at engine overhaulers.

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 18:08:25 GMT, "Allen"
wrote:


Don't go for the 421 or 421A. They both utilized engines that were short
lived and high maintenance. The 421B can use the GTSIO-520-H engine that is
more readily found at engine overhaulers.

What year did the 421B model start? Does that indicated the larger
fuselage?

John Szpara
Affordable Satellite
Fiero Owner 2-84 Indy Pace cars, 86 Coupe, 88 Formula 3.4, 88 Coupe, 88GT

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 16:31:19 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
wrote:


I'm looking at 421s in the $150-180k range. There are at least a half
dozen on trade a plane at any one time.


I didn't realize that they were so cheap. I guess that I was thinking of
the C model.

Mike
MU-2


Yes, A & B models are out there in that range. There was one on Ebay
for $60,000 (below reserve), repeat auction after the last one fell
through, but went for $76,000. I would have gone for that one, but
research showed there were better ones available for less total money
(both engines were near TBO).

John Szpara
Affordable Satellite
Fiero Owner 2-84 Indy Pace cars, 86 Coupe, 88 Formula 3.4, 88 Coupe, 88GT

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 16:59:13 GMT, "Colin W Kingsbury"
wrote:


wrote in message
news:1104443885.3fb6f23b35455ac79c342aee9241e5cd@ teranews...


Since it makes sense to get your rating in a plane you own, and the
400-series Cessna are terrible for this type of work (hell on the engines)
I'd look to buy something to get the rating in and then build some time in
before stepping up. You may even find the step-up unnecessary as many people
overestimate what they really need. A light twin like a Seminole or Aztec
might be a good choice, since the smaller engines won't eat you alive on
costs and it's docile enough to be a good training platform, but you're
building multi time which will help you when time comes to insure something
bigger. I just don't see making the step-up from a low-time 182 pilot to a
400 series right away.

If he wants to do the slow transition route of being able to get his
twin rating and still carry passengers and luggage around, I would go
for the Seneca II T. I fly both the Seneca II T and a 421C quiet
often (at least once a week each) and I can tell you that I can out
climb the 421 in the Seneca II any day. The Seminole is for training
only IMHO. The engines are just to small for any use full load, but
the Seneca II will carry 4 passengers with their luggage and full fuel
just fine.

The 421C is very nice but with the fuel that it uses, around 44GPH
compared to the Seneca's 22GPH, the speed difference that you get
between the two is not worth the fuel. Yes the 421 has a higher
service ceiling, but if he is going to train in the 421, he is going
to be real hard on those geared engines, which are not cheap. I cant
say much about the B model as I only have one flight in it but it was
a dog and I really hated being in it.

Scott D.


Scott D

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"john szpara" wrote in message
news:1104894990.9b8bdf9c0fc87d09428b5fb09527b83d@t eranews...
On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 18:08:25 GMT, "Allen"
wrote:


Don't go for the 421 or 421A. They both utilized engines that were short
lived and high maintenance. The 421B can use the GTSIO-520-H engine that
is
more readily found at engine overhaulers.

What year did the 421B model start? Does that indicated the larger
fuselage?

John Szpara
Affordable Satellite
Fiero Owner 2-84 Indy Pace cars, 86 Coupe, 88 Formula 3.4, 88 Coupe, 88GT

The 421 was first built in 1968, 200 of them were built. The 421A started
in 1969, 158 were built. Both the 421 and 421A had the GTSIO-520-D engines.
The 421B started in 1970 and was built until 1975. It had a 410 lb. gross
weight increase, the GTSIO-520-H engines, 2'4" longer fuselage and 2' wider
wing span.

Allen