AP/Reuters Says Blackhawk Hostile Fire Loss and First Chem Munitions Found

The AP and Reuters are reporting that the Blackhawk that was lost last
Thursday was apparently a victim of hostile fire based upon results from a
preliminary investigation. Both sources also report that Danish troops have
found the first confirmed chemical weapons in Iraq--36 artillery or mortar
rounds (reports vary as to specific type) filled with a blister agent, and
that another 100 rounds may be in the cache. No doubt some folks will soon
be screaming that 36, or 136 for that matter, chemical rounds are not
indicitive of Saddam having had chemical munitions despite his protestations
otherwise...

Brooks

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 06:32:58 GMT, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:

The AP and Reuters are reporting that the Blackhawk that was lost last
Thursday was apparently a victim of hostile fire based upon results from a
preliminary investigation. Both sources also report that Danish troops have
found the first confirmed chemical weapons in Iraq--36 artillery or mortar
rounds (reports vary as to specific type) filled with a blister agent, and
that another 100 rounds may be in the cache. No doubt some folks will soon
be screaming that 36, or 136 for that matter, chemical rounds are not
indicitive of Saddam having had chemical munitions despite his protestations
otherwise...

Brooks

According to some news reports the U.S. is tentivaly stating that
they appear to be left over from the Iran-Iraq war. They certainly are
corroded enough.

OTH, this could also be a desire to cross every T and dot every I,
so that should they be detirmend to be from after the gulf war, the
U.S. will have maximum credibility.

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 07:27:47 GMT, Charles Gray wrote:

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 06:32:58 GMT, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:

The AP and Reuters are reporting that the Blackhawk that was lost last
Thursday was apparently a victim of hostile fire based upon results from a
preliminary investigation. Both sources also report that Danish troops have
found the first confirmed chemical weapons in Iraq--36 artillery or mortar
rounds (reports vary as to specific type) filled with a blister agent, and
that another 100 rounds may be in the cache. No doubt some folks will soon
be screaming that 36, or 136 for that matter, chemical rounds are not
indicitive of Saddam having had chemical munitions despite his protestations
otherwise...

Brooks

According to some news reports the U.S. is tentivaly stating that
they appear to be left over from the Iran-Iraq war. They certainly are
corroded enough.

OTH, this could also be a desire to cross every T and dot every I,
so that should they be detirmend to be from after the gulf war, the
U.S. will have maximum credibility.

Well, they just found them, so they are clearly from "after the Gulf
War. They may have been built before the war, but they exist, and
are WMD.

Al Minyard

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 07:27:47 GMT, Charles Gray wrote:

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 06:32:58 GMT, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:

The AP and Reuters are reporting that the Blackhawk that was lost last
Thursday was apparently a victim of hostile fire based upon results from
a
preliminary investigation. Both sources also report that Danish troops
have
found the first confirmed chemical weapons in Iraq--36 artillery or
mortar
rounds (reports vary as to specific type) filled with a blister agent,
and
that another 100 rounds may be in the cache. No doubt some folks will
soon
be screaming that 36, or 136 for that matter, chemical rounds are not
indicitive of Saddam having had chemical munitions despite his
protestations
otherwise...

Brooks

According to some news reports the U.S. is tentivaly stating that
they appear to be left over from the Iran-Iraq war. They certainly are
corroded enough.

OTH, this could also be a desire to cross every T and dot every I,
so that should they be detirmend to be from after the gulf war, the
U.S. will have maximum credibility.

Well, they just found them, so they are clearly from "after the Gulf
War. They may have been built before the war, but they exist, and
are WMD.

and they were required to be accounted for and destroyed.

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 07:27:47 GMT, Charles Gray wrote:

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 06:32:58 GMT, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:

The AP and Reuters are reporting that the Blackhawk that was lost last
Thursday was apparently a victim of hostile fire based upon results from
a
preliminary investigation. Both sources also report that Danish troops
have
found the first confirmed chemical weapons in Iraq--36 artillery or
mortar
rounds (reports vary as to specific type) filled with a blister agent,
and
that another 100 rounds may be in the cache. No doubt some folks will
soon
be screaming that 36, or 136 for that matter, chemical rounds are not
indicitive of Saddam having had chemical munitions despite his
protestations
otherwise...

Brooks

According to some news reports the U.S. is tentivaly stating that
they appear to be left over from the Iran-Iraq war. They certainly are
corroded enough.

OTH, this could also be a desire to cross every T and dot every I,
so that should they be detirmend to be from after the gulf war, the
U.S. will have maximum credibility.

Well, they just found them, so they are clearly from "after the Gulf
War. They may have been built before the war, but they exist, and
are WMD.

Al Minyard

Although all the testing has not been completed on these rounds. A similar
find of badly corroded mortar rounds, back in October, gave off the same
initial readings and turned out to have been white phosphorus after final
testing. This also happened with an ASM warhead found at an Iraqi airbase -
initial meter readings were reported to the media, but subsequent testing
proved it not to have been a chemical round.

TJ

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 23:51:36 +0100, "Emmanuel Gustin"
wrote:

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
t...

that another 100 rounds may be in the cache. No doubt some folks will soon
be screaming that 36, or 136 for that matter, chemical rounds are not
indicitive of Saddam having had chemical munitions despite his
protestations
otherwise...

Always happy to oblige :-) Assuming these are indeed filled with a
blister agent, which still needs to be evaluated properly: Looking at
their condition, this hardly amounts to "having chemical ammunitions."
Surely the crime here is "having toxic waste". No remotely sane gun
crew is going to try to load and fire these rounds!

If this is your WMD standard, then I can tell Belgium must have a
larger WMD arsenal than Iraq: We have tons of leftovers from WW1,
in similar conditions. Farmers regularly unearth them while plowing
their fields. Usually they just drag them to the side and leave them
there until the collection truck comes round...


the question isn't "are they usable" but "when were they buried" if
it was during or after the Iranian conflict, it's very reasonable to
assume they were just forgotten, probably deliberately by whoever
might have had to try and dig them up.
If they were buried a year ago, that puts and entirely different
complex on things-- in that case, bush was right and Iraq DID have
combat ready munitions.

I've been told by some people that teh condition of the munitions
is not neccesarily a sign of how old they are-- it depends on how they
were buried the chemcical composition of the soil (!), and other
details, many of which, absent something convenient, like an
inspectors stamp with June 1st, 2003 on it, are fairly time
consuming-- and as one poster above said, there's always a chance that
they are not chemical munitions at all.

"Emmanuel Gustin" wrote in message
...
"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...

that another 100 rounds may be in the cache. No doubt some folks will
soon
be screaming that 36, or 136 for that matter, chemical rounds are not
indicitive of Saddam having had chemical munitions despite his
protestations
otherwise...

Always happy to oblige :-) Assuming these are indeed filled with a
blister agent, which still needs to be evaluated properly: Looking at
their condition, this hardly amounts to "having chemical ammunitions."
Surely the crime here is "having toxic waste". No remotely sane gun
crew is going to try to load and fire these rounds!

So because they were just *stupid* in how they stored those rounds
(reportedly wrapped in mylar and buried), that exhonerates Saddam of having
them....that does not sound very logical to me.


If this is your WMD standard, then I can tell Belgium must have a
larger WMD arsenal than Iraq: We have tons of leftovers from WW1,
in similar conditions. Farmers regularly unearth them while plowing
their fields. Usually they just drag them to the side and leave them
there until the collection truck comes round...

I was unaware the Belgians ever developed or fielded chemical munitions
(would have been a bit hard to do, since the German's were occupying them
through most of the war). And i suspect you really know that your analogy
here falls flatter than a pancake--the munitions in question were undeniably
Iraqi in origin.

Saddam was supposed to have (a) destroyed all of his chemical munitions, and
(b) accounted for same. It is obvious that in this case (a) any destruction
was unintentional (or why would they have wrapped them up before burying
them?), and (b) he did not account for them. That would put him in violation
of both the ceasefire agreements and the subsequent UN resolutions.

Brooks


--
Emmanuel Gustin

"Emmanuel Gustin" wrote in message
...
"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...

that another 100 rounds may be in the cache. No doubt some folks will
soon
be screaming that 36, or 136 for that matter, chemical rounds are not
indicitive of Saddam having had chemical munitions despite his
protestations
otherwise...

Always happy to oblige :-) Assuming these are indeed filled with a
blister agent, which still needs to be evaluated properly: Looking at
their condition, this hardly amounts to "having chemical ammunitions."
Surely the crime here is "having toxic waste". No remotely sane gun
crew is going to try to load and fire these rounds!

If this is your WMD standard, then I can tell Belgium must have a
larger WMD arsenal than Iraq: We have tons of leftovers from WW1,
in similar conditions. Farmers regularly unearth them while plowing
their fields. Usually they just drag them to the side and leave them
there until the collection truck comes round...

Some pretty serious avoiding of the issue there.

Saddam was not only required to destroy what he had, but to account for the
destruction.

If those rounds were missing from earlier wars or atrocities, they should
still have been accounted for up until the point at which they were issued
to a unit and then listed as missing as of whatever date and time.

If Saddam can walk away from accounting for 36 buried chem rounds (assuming
they are chem), why not 360 - at what point would you agree that he should
have accounted for the rounds?

Saddam was supposed to have (a) destroyed all of his chemical munitions,
and
(b) accounted for same. It is obvious that in this case (a) any
destruction
was unintentional (or why would they have wrapped them up before burying
them?), and (b) he did not account for them. That would put him in
violation
of both the ceasefire agreements and the subsequent UN resolutions.

The rounds were found from former swamp bed (Saddam dried these swamps in
effort to catch the Shiia rebels after 1991) and were estimated to be 10+
years old by US specialists.

"tadaa" wrote in message ...
Saddam was supposed to have (a) destroyed all of his chemical munitions,
and
(b) accounted for same. It is obvious that in this case (a) any
destruction
was unintentional (or why would they have wrapped them up before burying
them?), and (b) he did not account for them. That would put him in
violation
of both the ceasefire agreements and the subsequent UN resolutions.

The rounds were found from former swamp bed (Saddam dried these swamps in
effort to catch the Shiia rebels after 1991) and were estimated to be 10+
years old by US specialists.

Uhmm...the last I heard the dating was inconclusive as of yet, with various
sources making differing claims, from "ten years" (which would of course
have been *after* ODS--it could be over *thirteen* years old and still have
been a post-ODS cache), to "the Iran-Iraq War". In the end, it does not
really matter--Saddam turned in repeated and differing accounts detailing
his alleged destruction of WMD...do you think he listed any of it as "Gee,
we lost it and don't know *where* it is"? I doubt it. Face it, he did not
meet the requirements.

Brooks