Tow Plane Upsets......

Originally Posted by

I have had the pleasure of taking tows behind Walt. He is best in show and a class act. I only have a few hundred tows in our club Pawnees and about 800tt in power and 50 in sailplanes so I'm no expert. What I do know is this: sailplane pilots are usually type-A and do a great job of rationalizing risk factors to themselves and others. Tost hook be damned, Walt- the variability in sailplane pilots at any club/commercial op will be a risk factor no modified release will solve for. It's a question of whether or not you are comfortable blocking out that idea or not. If I recall correctly, your past career is heavily analytical and clinical- I don't think this question is solvable that way.

Rick,

I made a comment about the two pilots in question and you are right, there is a wide disparity among pilots relative to skill. A gentleman with obvious physical problems and a 15 year old student who never impressed me while she was dual are exactly the type you have to watch but if we only towed highly experienced pilots no one would get their license to gain that experience. That being said my analysis of the problem tells me that a Schweizer hook is inappropriate when we know the Tost will work under similar circumstances AND that the release handle MUST be immediately available to the tow pilot, not down on the floor or where one must bend and reach and feel for it and it must provide enough mechanical advantage to accomplish the job.

Learning that other clubs and facilities have changed to the Tost 30 years ago and that their handles are such that the pilot does not have to do Olympic class gymnastics to grab it concerns me. I realize that we can't pull things out of our asses today and rectify the problem immediately BUT I assure you things will be well underway today to correct my concerns OR I will be starting my second retirement a bit earlier than I had wanted to.

Walt

Originally Posted by George Haeh

The older, taller gliders were more problematic with CG hooks because the
hook was well below the actual CG. Some have a tendency to pitch up
excessively even on a winch.

I've taken aerotows on a CG hook in Pilatus, LS-4, ASW-20 and 27. None
harder than a nose hook in a Blanik.

The new designs are easier as long as the tow pilot gives you the
manufacturer recommended aerotow speed. One towpilot shorted me 10 kts
once too many times. I don't take tows from him any more as I got high
behind him twice and yanked.

The 27 with CG hook is lovely on aerotow, even through rotor. YMMV with
water and different CGs.

A nose hook is more work as you have to compensate for yaw and pitch
couples.

My question is which gliders with CG hooks are giving towpilots trouble?

Or is it a pilot problem?

George, this was initially a pilot problem. A 15 year old student on her 3rd solo pattern tow and an older guy with obvious physical problems who had not taken an aero tow in a year or more are not the safest people to tow. That being said the next problem as previously stated is the Schweizer hook. It is well documented that under extreme pressure pulling the handle requires a herculean effort which I understand the a Tost conversion will correct. Then there is the question of the size and position of the release handle. It should be easily accessable and provide the necessary mechanical advantage. Someone mentioned reaction time. In one case I could see the belly of the glider in the mirror and I knew things were about to go bad but even if my hand was on the release at the time, by the time I knew I HAD to do it it would have been too late. It happened in the wink of an eye. The second time I could not see the glider as the student was out to the right and there is no mirror on the right side of the tow plane. There is ''NO ONE SIMPLE FIX."

Walt

The Tost Reel and guillotine system has its own set of issues and is itself controversial. My club used two of them for several years and later abandoned the system in favor of the straight Tost release.
If somebody wants details - start a different thread.
ROY

On 4/25/2017 5:18 AM, Walt Connelly wrote:

snip
....

AND that the release handle
MUST be immediately available to the tow pilot, not down on the floor or
where one must bend and reach and feel for it and it must provide enough
mechanical advantage to accomplish the job.

/snip

It's been over a year but, IIRC, the release levers on the three tugs at
Sundance Aviation (Moriarty) are hinged at the floor with an
approximately 3-foot lever at about the same height as the throttle.
Easy to grab without looking and LOTS of mechanical advantage. Not
commenting at this time about the relative merits or each type of release.

On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 at 9:03:34 AM UTC-5, Roy B. wrote:
The Tost Reel and guillotine system has its own set of issues and is itself controversial. My club used two of them for several years and later abandoned the system in favor of the straight Tost release.
If somebody wants details - start a different thread.
ROY

Roy, would you PM me at kirk.stant at gmail.com? I'm curious about what problems you had with your Tost reel systems.

Cheers,

Kirk
66

We train boxing the wake, cannot release and slack rope recovery, and
expect
demonstration of some or all of these items on checkouts.

Hands up anybody who trains release when high on the towplane?

If students have never done this, how can we expect them to do it when
needed before or after license?

I basically taught, "you lose sight of the towplane, you release". Yes, maybe a quick stab at the rudder will find the towplane again under your nose, then again, maybe not.

Yes, I know that's taught, but does anybody put the student high so that
release is required.

Just as with spins, there's a difference between being told what to do -
and
actually going into the situation.

I am not a CFI. What would the risk be to doing that training? Particularly to the tow pilot?

At 03:16 26 April 2017, Charles Longley wrote:
I am not a CFI. What would the risk be to doing that training?
Particularly
to the tow pilot?

Maybe the answer is for the instructor to release whenever the student gets
high and it is safe to do so. The student may then get the message?