more bitching about the IFR written - CDI left/right versus north/south/etc

You are correct that it is impossible to fly direct to the intersection.
But you can take a heading that will intercept one of the two radials, and
then you fly along that radial to intersection. I realize this can be done
with the left/right technique also, but it requires a lot of mind numbming
visualizations. It is really trivial the other way.

What is mind-numbing to one is trivial for another, with no
denegration intended.

It's important to understand the instrument. Once you do, pick the
technique that works for you, while not forgetting the fundamentals of
the instrument.

Jose
--
Money: What you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

The CDI tells you which heading to turn to if you dial
in the correct OBS. Which do you think is more useful
command: turn left, or turn to a heading of xxx?

If I'm already pointing more or less in the right direction,
"turn left" is more useful. If not, the actual heading is.

I guess it really comes down to... the needle can be read as saying
"turn left... of the course in the OBS". Which if you're pretty much
facing the course in the OBS, is "left". And if not, you get your
heading by looking left of the OBS.

Jose
--
Money: What you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

wrote:

On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 17:52:20 -0500, Andrew Gideon
wrote:

wrote:

The "one-entry" method makes the initial turn the shortest way to
outbound.

So if I'm to hold over a VOR on the 270 radial, and I'm flying a track of
080, I should turn left to intercept the 270 outbound after overflying the
VOR?

- Andrew


Yes,

You can do that while staying on the protected side?

- Andrew

Andrew Sarangan wrote:

No, it is not just a reminder, it is a tremendous aid in interpretation.
Reverse sensing is all in your head.

Amusing combination of text, as the OBS only helps in this context if the
heading isn't [still] in your head. Yes, the information provided is
important. But - at least in my experience - it's already in memory.

What I don't understand is why nobody has yet mentioned wind correction in
this thread. When flying a localizer, I'll typically have some amount of
crab in place. Thus, my DG should read something different from the track
of the approach (and the OBS). If the needle starts to drift (and assuming
I've maintained my intended heading {8^), I'll correct that intended
heading one way or the other.

So while the plate may tell me to fly 223, I may flying 230. Tempting it is
to put 230 in the OBS, as that's not written anywhere. But that's too much
futzing (esp. as it is a dynamic value), so I just live with the need to
remember.

- Andrew

Think of it as a slide rule. Why bother using a slide rule when you can
do it in your head? Come to think of it, why bother using an E6B? Just
do it in your head. It is all simple math anyway. I am not saying it is
impossible to do all this in your head. One does not need a PhD to
figure out which way to turn when the CDI deflects one way. The goal,
however, is to reduce the number of brain CPU cycles. It frees up more
time for more important things. Everyone has their own favorite way of
using the CDI, but I have never encountered anyone who did not think
that the heading interpretation was significantly simpler than the
left/right interpretation after I finish explaining it to them.
Regarding wind, the wind correction naturally falls out of the CDI
deflection. I have elaborated this elsewhere, and I am getting tired of
sounding like a broken record, so I will leave that up to you to look it
up.




Andrew Gideon wrote in
online.com:

Andrew Sarangan wrote:

No, it is not just a reminder, it is a tremendous aid in
interpretation. Reverse sensing is all in your head.

Amusing combination of text, as the OBS only helps in this context if
the heading isn't [still] in your head. Yes, the information provided
is important. But - at least in my experience - it's already in
memory.

What I don't understand is why nobody has yet mentioned wind
correction in this thread. When flying a localizer, I'll typically
have some amount of crab in place. Thus, my DG should read something
different from the track of the approach (and the OBS). If the needle
starts to drift (and assuming I've maintained my intended heading
{8^), I'll correct that intended heading one way or the other.

So while the plate may tell me to fly 223, I may flying 230. Tempting
it is to put 230 in the OBS, as that's not written anywhere. But
that's too much futzing (esp. as it is a dynamic value), so I just
live with the need to remember.

- Andrew

On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:33:11 -0500, Andrew Gideon
wrote:

Andrew Sarangan wrote:

No, it is not just a reminder, it is a tremendous aid in interpretation.
Reverse sensing is all in your head.

Amusing combination of text, as the OBS only helps in this context if the
heading isn't [still] in your head. Yes, the information provided is
important. But - at least in my experience - it's already in memory.

What I don't understand is why nobody has yet mentioned wind correction in
this thread. When flying a localizer, I'll typically have some amount of
crab in place. Thus, my DG should read something different from the track
of the approach (and the OBS). If the needle starts to drift (and assuming
I've maintained my intended heading {8^), I'll correct that intended
heading one way or the other.

So while the plate may tell me to fly 223, I may flying 230. Tempting it is
to put 230 in the OBS, as that's not written anywhere. But that's too much
futzing (esp. as it is a dynamic value), so I just live with the need to

The OBS is not dynamic unless you are flying an NDB.. It is the course
on the VOR. Your heading changes, not the course, or it shouldn't.
Radial outbound and reciprical inbound, although you don't actually
fly on the radial outbound, but rather parallel to in (usually more at
an angle to get an egg shaped race track) A map display on GPS is
really nice for this once you learn it with out the GPS.
If this was an NDB I always set the *heading* (inbound and outbound)
in the OBS. It makes flying NDBs a breeze.

Whether inbound or outbound I always put the course in the OBS. It's
easy, it's quick, and it's the way I was taught.

I keep the OBS centered inbound. I can read the wind correction as
the difference between heading and course. If I have to hold 300 to
keep the OBS centered on a course of 270 I know the wind correction
angle is 30 degrees. What every the wind correction inbound I double
it outbound. Yes I have flown wind correction angles of 60 degrees
outbound ... twice and one of those was on my check ride.
Here the OBS only serves as a reminder and it lets me know if I'm
drifting off more than expected.

I do a "Kentucky windage" inbound on the first circuit to see if it's
short or long and adjust the outbound leg time accordingly. Normally
the second inbound will be within a few seconds.

I was taught to use heading bugs and the OBS as both remindders and
short cuts.

If you write like I do they are not only easier to remember but you
can read them.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
remember.

- Andrew

On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:16:00 -0500, Andrew Gideon
wrote:

wrote:

On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 17:52:20 -0500, Andrew Gideon
wrote:

wrote:

The "one-entry" method makes the initial turn the shortest way to
outbound.

So if I'm to hold over a VOR on the 270 radial, and I'm flying a track of
080, I should turn left to intercept the 270 outbound after overflying the
VOR?

- Andrew


Yes,

You can do that while staying on the protected side?

It does for me flying into 3BS at HARPY, but we have left hand turns.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

- Andrew

On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:16:00 -0500, Andrew Gideon
wrote:

wrote:

On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 17:52:20 -0500, Andrew Gideon
wrote:

wrote:

The "one-entry" method makes the initial turn the shortest way to
outbound.

So if I'm to hold over a VOR on the 270 radial, and I'm flying a track of
080, I should turn left to intercept the 270 outbound after overflying the
VOR?

- Andrew


Yes,

You can do that while staying on the protected side?
- Andrew

A parallel entry does not keep you on the protected SIDE.

If you can make a 110 degree turn to the left and stay within
protected airspace, do you not think that you can make a 170 degree
turn and stay within protected airspace?

wrote in message ...
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:16:00 -0500, Andrew Gideon
wrote:

wrote:

On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 17:52:20 -0500, Andrew Gideon
wrote:

wrote:

The "one-entry" method makes the initial turn the shortest way to
outbound.

So if I'm to hold over a VOR on the 270 radial, and I'm flying a track of
080, I should turn left to intercept the 270 outbound after overflying the
VOR?

- Andrew


Yes,

You can do that while staying on the protected side?
- Andrew

A parallel entry does not keep you on the protected SIDE.

If you can make a 110 degree turn to the left and stay within
protected airspace, do you not think that you can make a 170 degree
turn and stay within protected airspace?



Maybe yes, maybe no, depending on the speed-- but the 170 degree turn certainly uses almost twice as room as
the 110...

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas