No spin training in the US?

"Mark Morissette" wrote in message
...
As for 2500 AGL you quoted, that's wayyyyy low.. Our training area
is about 650' asl, and we were climbing through to 4500' before each
spin... It was a comfortable height, and even after recovery from 2
or 3 turns in the spin, I never felt uncomfortably low.

The only inadvertant spin that I ever encountered was in an S2B... We were
doing 90 degree bank 90 degree turns and I didn't have the ball centered and
ended up in an accelerated stall and then a roll through 270 degrees in the
opposite direction to the turn in what seemed like less than a second...
Next thing I knew, the nose was pointed towards the ground... I'm not sure
of our altitude since it's been a few years since it happened, but I
seriously doubt that it was more than 2000 ft MSL (which basically equals
AGL in Houston)... Coming out of it was no big deal in the S2B with plenty
of room to spare... The instructor even had time to ask me if I knew what I
had done and how I was going to recover from it...

Hmmm.
I've done lots of spin training - in Canada.
There are all kinds of stats, which can be made to say pretty much
anything that you want.

So is the teaching of spins dangerous?
It sure as hell is if you are with a brand new 300 hour CFI.

But would you take spin training with Dudley, or Gene, or Bob, or CJ?
I would. I took my spin training with a 3000 hr CFI. But I sure as hell
wouldn't do it with a newly minted CFI. And yes - I do accept that they
have to practice somewhere - but not on me and not on my dollar.

Oh - and if you happen to own a Cirrus - this discussion doesn't apply
to you - those guys managed to build the first aircraft since WW1 that
can't recover from a spin!

Flame away - it's true!

Tony

In article ,
Mark Morissette wrote:

What's eveyrones opinion regarding the lack of spin traning for
students in the US? I see that there was a thread about this from an
instructor viewpoint a while back, but not necessarilly from the
student viewpoint.

Personally, there was only two lessons that I didn't look forward to -
Spin training, and spiral dives.

Spiral dives turned out to be nothing at all.. 15 minutes, 4 or 5
spirals, quick and safe recoveries, and that was over. Nothing to it,
I was worried about something which amounted to easy training.

Spins however, as comfortable of a student as I am, got me a little
excited. However, we went out, did them, and that was it.

Looking back on things, I'm *very* glad that they are still part of
the curiculum here in Canada. It's easy to "read" about something
in the POH and try to cram all that into your cranium should the
situation ever occur, but...

Can anyone here honestly say that everything they've ever read, versus
practiced in the air, equals the same training-wise?

For example, if you never had spin training, and suddenly found
yourself in a spin, would you be confident that everything you "read"
about them will get you out of it? Yes, you can read what's
necessary, but can you automatically recall all of that in the air,
when your first inintentional "lesson" on spins could possibly be at
1000AGL in the circuilt?

I've consistently found that lessons practiced quickly become second
nature, whereas things I've read take much more time to fully grasp
untill it comes into real-life practice...and there is no substitution
for the real thing - anyone who has spent time flying MS Flight
Simulator before flying the real thing can certainly attest to this.

Yes, the spins were not fun.. I wasn't one of the students who were
so paranoid of them that I was cancelling flights to avoid the
inevitable, and then ended up in the fetal position on the floor of
the plane during them - I just wasn't "excited" about them like
everything else. grin

Yep, there was a whole lot more "Ground" in the windscreen all of a
sudden then I ever want to see again. But I'm glad I did it.

During the actual training, my proficiency with initiating, and (more
importantly) recovering from the spins gained rapidly. By the 4th or
5th spin, I was able to recover consistently and quickly, without much
"thinking" about what to do, and more "automatically" just doing it.

More importantly, I was in the 100's of feel of alt lost, instead of
the 1000's in the first spins. If an unintentional spin ever
happened in the circuit, I'm much more likely to be able to recover
before hitting terra-firma now, then I would have been initially.

I can't honestly say that if spin training was not part of the
curriculum here still, that I wouldn't ask for it regardless..fun or
otherwise.. But reading here in the newsgroups, it seems as if most
schools in the US no longer train them, even if they are still
technically allowed, but not required?

Opinions?

Mark Morissette
Courtice, Ontario, Canada (Flying out of CYOO)
http://oshawapilot.blogspot.com




--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

"tony roberts" wrote in message
news:nospam-FC7608.22253002042005@shawnews...
Oh - and if you happen to own a Cirrus - this discussion doesn't apply
to you - those guys managed to build the first aircraft since WW1 that
can't recover from a spin!

What about the AA1? NASA had to add a drogue chute to them for their spin
testing...

My instructor followed his own rules, and a spin demonstration was one
of them. That was in 1996.

The demonstration fascinated me enough that a couple years later I
went out to Chandler AZ for spin training and some minor aerobatics.

www.pipercubforum.com/chandler.htm


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net

On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 21:46:19 -0400, Dave
wrote:

- It is gentle on the aircraft...

Chandler AZ has two Super Cubs. Since I'd never flown at that time, I
asked to do my spin training in a PA-18. They refused because the Cubs
(unlike the Great Lakes trainers they use for aerobatics) have gyro
compasses, and they didn't want to tumble the gyros.

Similarly, Hampton NH prohibits spins in its J-3/L-4 Cubs because of
the age of the aircraft.

So there are two FBOs that don't seem to agree with the gentility of
spins. And I have to say that when I did the spin training in the
Great Lakes, though it was milder than some of the aerobatics I did
later, it was not totally benign. After 90 minutes of it, in the heat,
and driving back to the motel past the stockyard, I sometimes felt
that my own gyros were about to tumble.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net

On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 21:38:42 -0500, Mark Morissette
wrote:

As for 2500 AGL you quoted, that's wayyyyy low.. Our training area
is about 650' asl, and we were climbing through to 4500' before each
spin..

At Chandler AZ, they set the altimeter at field altitude, which was
the same altitude as the desert to the southeast where they did their
training. As I recall, we were always above 4,000 feet before starting
any maneuver.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net

Recently, Mark Morissette posted:

What's eveyrones opinion regarding the lack of spin traning for
students in the US? I see that there was a thread about this from an
instructor viewpoint a while back, but not necessarilly from the
student viewpoint.

I think the emphasis in the US has shifted toward spin-avoidance. We are
required to perform both climbing (power-on) and descending (power-off)
turning stalls.

Neil

George Patterson wrote:

houstondan wrote:

general to the group: in spin training, what seems to have been been
the most popular way to screw up?


The best way to make it terminal seems to be to get the loading wrong in
such a way that you can't recover from the spin. According to a fellow I
spoke to at the Maule factory, it is nearly impossible to recover in an
MX-7 with the CG at one extreme of the envelope (he did not remember
which extreme but thought it might be aft). Maule placards the aircraft
"Intentional spins prohibited." Between 5 and 10 years ago, two CFIs
died in a PA-28 near Solberg when the spin went flat. The last time this
thread surfaced, several people said that loading is also critical in
some models of C-172.

Loading is important is pretty much all airplanes. Having the CG too
far aft will tend to induce a flatter spin and give the rudder less
authority.

Matt

Next thing I knew, the nose was pointed towards the ground... I'm not sure
of our altitude since it's been a few years since it happened, but I
seriously doubt that it was more than 2000 ft MSL (which basically equals
AGL in Houston)... Coming out of it was no big deal in the S2B with plenty
of room to spare... The instructor even had time to ask me if I knew what I
had done and how I was going to recover from it...

My point wasn't that it would be impossible to recover safely at the
altitude the other poster quoted, it was that for "Training purposes"
it seemed really low.

Yes, the whole point behind the spin training in my mind is that if it
ever happens while your low and slow (most probable situation, such as
base/final turn) that the recovery could be made before you made a
smoking hole in the ground.

Personally, when I *know* I'm going to be intentionally entering a
spin, I'd prefer to have a few thousand feet between me and the
ground. For that matter, it's written into the CAR's that recovery is
made at least 2000'AGL...Or perhaps 2500AGL, I forget exactly..I
should look it up... It's been a while since I completed the spin
training, and it's one of those numbers thats slipped my mind since.

Mark Morissette wrote:
Next thing I knew, the nose was pointed towards the ground... I'm
not sure
of our altitude since it's been a few years since it happened, but I
seriously doubt that it was more than 2000 ft MSL (which basically
equals
AGL in Houston)... Coming out of it was no big deal in the S2B with
plenty
of room to spare... The instructor even had time to ask me if I knew
what I
had done and how I was going to recover from it...

My point wasn't that it would be impossible to recover safely at the
altitude the other poster quoted, it was that for "Training purposes"
it seemed really low.

Mark
I've mentioned this before here spins and them saving my tender butt
a couple times while finding myself trapped in foggy conditions while
crop spraying in Pawnees. I've spun down twice in small holes while I
had ground contact and recovered at low altitude (2-300'agl). Once was
in Louisiana and the other was in Mozambique. I agree that 3000agl is a
good training entry altitude for spins and that is ample in my opinion.
BTW, I have Canada commercial #C408095 and FAA ATP #1550330
Best Regards
Ol S&B (some say Ol SOB)

Yes, the whole point behind the spin training in my mind is that if
it
ever happens while your low and slow (most probable situation, such
as
base/final turn) that the recovery could be made before you made a
smoking hole in the ground.

Personally, when I *know* I'm going to be intentionally entering a
spin, I'd prefer to have a few thousand feet between me and the
ground. For that matter, it's written into the CAR's that recovery
is
made at least 2000'AGL...Or perhaps 2500AGL, I forget exactly..I
should look it up... It's been a while since I completed the spin
training, and it's one of those numbers thats slipped my mind since.