Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

On 4/24/2021 2:44 AM, wrote:
On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 11:04:07 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 4/23/2021 4:41 AM, wrote:
On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 1:09:58 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
Bob, you keep saying "there is an advantage". What advantage, exactly? Are you suggesting that in this ......had no nightmares of a purist recovering from a low save to make it home for
dinner. Just yesterday I got a call from Puerto Rico, it was a motorglider
friend who offered to let me fly his JS3 MJ. I very quickly told him NO, why,
because he would take a picture of me in his motorglider and send it to Seminole
Lakes Motorglider Club and all the MG pilots would fall over laughing.
Seriously, IMHO there is a big advantage to the MG, being able to stretch it out a bit further to gain an advantage is a big plus on the side of the motorglider, simply stated, it prolongs a flight in certain situations, increases the ability to complete task or objectives without otherwise terminating the flight, that in and of itself is a huge advantage. Motorgliders and sustainers need to be scored in a class by themselves. Your friend and purist, Old Bob
I gotta say, this motorglider pilot would leap at the chance to fly a
JS3, even if it DIDN'T have a motor!

You seem a fool to pass up flying such a magnificent sailplane. You
could have learned so much about motorgliders that you are only now
guessing about. Call him back, tell you what to fly it, but just with
tows. It's a start to shedding your ignorance. If you feel comfortable
with it after a few flights, the next step is to think about using the
motor to launch in the JS3 after you've towed all the other gliders. And
think how much more credible you'd be, with actual experience.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"

https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Eric, obviously you don't know very much about motorgliders, how do you self launch in a JS3 MJ? Your lack of knowledge is showing, I would suggest doing a bit of research on motorgliders especially the JS3 Jet. I have an idea, in your next book you should write a chapter on self launching a sustainer. Old Bob

I misread it as "MG", and since I do not keep up with all the variations in all
the motorgliders that are available, I guessed it was a self-launcher. The main
point was passing up the chance to fly a magnificient sailplane seems very foolish.

But, a JS3 self-launching jet would be awesome! As would the price, given the
$50K cost for just the PBS TJ-100 that Desert Aerospace would install.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

The engines used on most motorlgiders are intended to be used that way when they
were designed, and are not expected to have a 2000 hour TBO. So, it is not a
problem. Perhaps the Rotax turbo version must be treated differently than the
912 I have on my Phoenix touring motorglider, because the advice for it is use
whatever power is required to avoid the landing. That can be at moderate RPMs
(3000, say) to warm it while climbing slowly, then using full power when the oil
is above 120F.

Eric

On 4/24/2021 8:09 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
I'm amazed that other aux powered gliders can start at or below 1,000' AGL and
fly away without trashing their engines.Â* The 4-cylinder turbocharged Rotax in
the Stemme needs several minutes to warm up before pushing it above idle.Â* That
means that, in dead air, more than a few thousand feet are needed for a save
rather than a land out.Â* That's why I always have a *paved* runway within range
so that I can land and warm up the engine before motoring home.Â* Tell me again
how convenient that is?

My engine is for take off only on a soaring flight and for repositioning the
glider otherwise.Â* Ain't got no steenking trailer.

Dan
5J

On 4/23/21 6:39 PM, waremark wrote:
On Friday, 23 April 2021 at 15:36:48 UTC+1, jfitch wrote:
If what you said were true, the podium at nationals would be crowded with MG
pilots. How many MGs were represented on the podium (or even the top 5) in
the last several 18 meter nationals? (hint: none).

I'm amazed. In the 2019 UK 18m Nationals I believe that every one of the 37
gliders entered had a motor.

I have started my motor I think 6 times in 20 years for a retrieve. Every
time it was 1500 ft AGL over a paved runway marked on a sectional. The
glider is too expensive to stuff into a field and too heavy to carry out of
it.

I'm amazed again and impressed. I'm sure you're a brilliant pilot and I'm not.
I start my engine for a retrieve several times a season, generally raising the
prop at 1,000 foot over a field. If I was over a paved runway, and not
conflicting with other traffic, I would probably go lower with the intention
of landing if I couldn't soar and taking off again. I believe I am quite
prudent compared to other motorglider pilot friends.



--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Thanks Eric,
The Stemme won't climb at 3,000 RPM and the manual says not to take off
until oil temperature is in the green. I take that advice to include
climb power.

Dan
5J

On 4/24/21 10:51 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
The engines used on most motorlgiders are intended to be used that way
when they were designed, and are not expected to have a 2000 hour TBO.
So, it is not a problem. Perhaps the Rotax turbo version must be treated
differently than the 912 I have on my Phoenix touring motorglider,
because the advice for it is use whatever power is required to avoid the
landing. That can be at moderate RPMs (3000, say) to warm it while
climbing slowly, then using full power when the oil is above 120F.

Eric

On 4/24/2021 8:09 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
I'm amazed that other aux powered gliders can start at or below 1,000'
AGL and fly away without trashing their engines.Â* The 4-cylinder
turbocharged Rotax in the Stemme needs several minutes to warm up
before pushing it above idle.Â* That means that, in dead air, more than
a few thousand feet are needed for a save rather than a land out.
That's why I always have a *paved* runway within range so that I can
land and warm up the engine before motoring home.Â* Tell me again how
convenient that is?

My engine is for take off only on a soaring flight and for
repositioning the glider otherwise.Â* Ain't got no steenking trailer.

Dan
5J

On 4/23/21 6:39 PM, waremark wrote:
On Friday, 23 April 2021 at 15:36:48 UTC+1, jfitch wrote:
If what you said were true, the podium at nationals would be crowded
with MG pilots. How many MGs were represented on the podium (or even
the top 5) in the last several 18 meter nationals? (hint: none).

I'm amazed. In the 2019 UK 18m Nationals I believe that every one of
the 37 gliders entered had a motor.

I have started my motor I think 6 times in 20 years for a
retrieve. Every time it was 1500 ft AGL over a paved runway
marked on a sectional. The glider is too expensive to stuff into a
field and too heavy to carry out of it.

I'm amazed again and impressed. I'm sure you're a brilliant pilot and
I'm not. I start my engine for a retrieve several times a season,
generally raising the prop at 1,000 foot over a field. If I was over
a paved runway, and not conflicting with other traffic, I would
probably go lower with the intention of landing if I couldn't soar
and taking off again. I believe I am quite prudent compared to other
motorglider pilot friends.

On Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 11:25:45 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
Yes, a motor can extend a flight that would have been terminated and get you home. That extension is not a soaring flight, does not count for contests including OLC, so once again, the advantage is convenience. No competitive advantage, no safety advantage. Far from degrading the sport, motorgliders have kept it alive, 80% of new purchases are motorgliders. This is a choice you have made, you seem envious or resentful of people who have made other choices in glider purchase. If you want to see thin skin, look in the mirror. I'm perfectly happy with you flying a non-motorglider. It is you who are criticizing me for making a different choice.

Just as I had predicted earlier in the discussion, we stick to our petrified positions. "Show me evidence... No competitive advantage, no safety advantage..." Denials, denials.

What evidence will you accept? No different mindset? Have you watched the video I pointed to? What the guy says at 26:36

https://youtu.be/hYXeMpQB2l0

Do you really believe Klaus Ohlmann and Jean-Marie Clément would have set their records in the Andes in a "pure" sailplane? Instead, they flew each a Nimbus 4DM, I believe. "No safety advantage" - really? Will you say it's a special case? Well, it is a sort of competition in setting records.

At moments it sounds almost like no-motor pilots should feel sorry for the MG owners with all the troubles they face and how actually disadvantaged they are.

In my opinion, motorgliders are a different branch of soaring and should be treated as such in scoring (including records), as long as a working motor is available as a life-line or just as a convenience help.

Tom BravoMike

On Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 10:09:34 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
On Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 5:44:20 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 11:04:07 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 4/23/2021 4:41 AM, wrote:
On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 1:09:58 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
Bob, you keep saying "there is an advantage". What advantage, exactly? Are you suggesting that in this case, the MG pilot was too low to reach a safe landing site when he started his motor? If so give us the link to his IGC file (or date and name), so that we may see this. I doubt you will because I doubt you can. "A much appreciated comment..." - do your MG friends commonly lie about starting the motor? It is right there in the IGC file for anyone to see. I'd be more than happy with a low save rule for contests where starting your motor - or thermaling - too low for a safe landing meant a DSQ, the so called 'hard deck' rule. It would affect more purists than MG pilots, I'll wager.

Of course there are pilots who fly low into unlandable terrain. I knew two, they did the same thing while flying non MG gliders and eventually came to grief. The motor didn't change their attitude, at most it delayed the inevitable. Kawa's accident isn't really a surprise, his risk tolerance is self documented.

I have started my motor I think 6 times in 20 years for a retrieve.. Every time it was 1500 ft AGL over a paved runway marked on a sectional.. The glider is too expensive to stuff into a field and too heavy to carry out of it.
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 10:10:26 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 10:58:06 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
I'm sorry, was that a revelation for you? That is what you do with a motorglider. The purist has exactly the same (or better) flight opportunity on a crummy day, except at the termination of the flight they may have to land and get an air or ground retrieve, an inconvenience. The motor in a glider is and always has been a convenience item. In fact, the purist has a *better* opportunity on a crummy day, because he can dump ballast and keep soaring in conditions that the motorglider cannot. On one flight I got home by this very fact, when I would otherwise have had to start the motor, effectively landed out - the motor had been removed for modification and the glider was 150 lbs lighter allowing the extra climb needed for final glide.

You continue to conflate 'convenience' with 'safety'. Look the terms up if you are confused by them.

If you tell me that some pilot started the motor low over unlandable terrain, then that pilot is a fool living on borrowed time, and would be regardless of the type of glider he was flying.
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 4:54:59 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 3:55:08 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 10:05:26 AM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:
"I'd rather have a motor and not need it than need a motor it and not have it."

However, I can't afford a motorglider and the associated insurance costs and maintenance expenses. But I don't approve of the "class warfare" tactics promoted by "Old Bob." Got a lot of MG friends, as well as "purists." This thread should die.
Mark, how can there be class warfare, we all can afford do do what we want. Old Bob
Finally found a honest motorglider comment on OLC. Yes, just yesterday I was resting from a visit from the doctor and reading the OLC results from Perry, S.C. One motorglider pilot stated that he was not doing well and the conditions were not good so he started his motor and went back home. The purist did not have that opportunity especially on a crummy day. Old Bob
Good morning Fitch, no, the comment was not a revelation, it was a much appreciated comment from a motorglider pilot. It further confirms that there is an advantage from the motorglider vs the purist, maybe you should not abrogate the fact that there is an advantage. Your friend, Old Bob
Good morning my friend Fitch, hopefully you got a good night sleep and had no nightmares of a purist recovering from a low save to make it home for dinner. Just yesterday I got a call from Puerto Rico, it was a motorglider friend who offered to let me fly his JS3 MJ. I very quickly told him NO, why, because he would take a picture of me in his motorglider and send it to Seminole Lakes Motorglider Club and all the MG pilots would fall over laughing.
Seriously, IMHO there is a big advantage to the MG, being able to stretch it out a bit further to gain an advantage is a big plus on the side of the motorglider, simply stated, it prolongs a flight in certain situations, increases the ability to complete task or objectives without otherwise terminating the flight, that in and of itself is a huge advantage. Motorgliders and sustainers need to be scored in a class by themselves. Your friend and purist, Old Bob
I gotta say, this motorglider pilot would leap at the chance to fly a
JS3, even if it DIDN'T have a motor!

You seem a fool to pass up flying such a magnificent sailplane. You
could have learned so much about motorgliders that you are only now
guessing about. Call him back, tell you what to fly it, but just with
tows. It's a start to shedding your ignorance. If you feel comfortable
with it after a few flights, the next step is to think about using the
motor to launch in the JS3 after you've towed all the other gliders. And
think how much more credible you'd be, with actual experience.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"

https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
Eric, obviously you don't know very much about motorgliders, how do you self launch in a JS3 MJ? Your lack of knowledge is showing, I would suggest doing a bit of research on motorgliders especially the JS3 Jet. I have an idea, in your next book you should write a chapter on self launching a sustainer. Old Bob
Again Bob you are just talking out your ass. If you did a little research you would see that there are lots of sustainers that can self launch. Bob if it has flaps it can self launch. We even had one based at Seminole that could self launch.
Why don't you get a new topic that you know something about.

To Glenn, you have not read or possibly did not care to read the referenced post to Eric. Please let me take this moment and kindly correct you about the sustainer as referenced. The JS3 MJ is a sustainer only! Not capable of self launch, the climb rate while airborne is between 100 and 200 fpm. The flap handle has nothing to do with the capability of shelf launch on that sustainer glider. The same with the ASG29, I just finished reading the manual and there was no reference to self launch.
The self and sustainer combo is available on a JS model Sailplane, I will let you educate yourself instead of relying on the information from my mouth not my ass as you replied.
Some people are taking sustainer glider and assisting for launch with a ground launch, I do know of a person who does a auto assist to gain altitude with his sustainer glider so that he can continue to locate a thermal to continue his flight.
I hope you are doing well, enjoying your stay in sunny Florida and you have an open invitation to join us here along with Eric to soar the beautiful skies of the Treasure Coast. Eileen and I would welcome you here at the ranch. Old Bob

On 4/24/2021 12:12 PM, Tom BravoMike wrote:
On Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 11:25:45 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
Yes, a motor can extend a flight that would have been terminated and get
you home. That extension is not a soaring flight, does not count for
contests including OLC, so once again, the advantage is convenience. No
competitive advantage, no safety advantage. Far from degrading the sport,
motorgliders have kept it alive, 80% of new purchases are motorgliders.
This is a choice you have made, you seem envious or resentful of people who
have made other choices in glider purchase. If you want to see thin skin,
look in the mirror. I'm perfectly happy with you flying a non-motorglider.
It is you who are criticizing me for making a different choice.

Just as I had predicted earlier in the discussion, we stick to our petrified
positions. "Show me evidence... No competitive advantage, no safety
advantage..." Denials, denials.

What evidence will you accept? No different mindset? Have you watched the
video I pointed to? What the guy says at 26:36

https://youtu.be/hYXeMpQB2l0

Do you really believe Klaus Ohlmann and Jean-Marie Clément would have set
their records in the Andes in a "pure" sailplane? Instead, they flew each a
Nimbus 4DM, I believe. "No safety advantage" - really? Will you say it's a
special case? Well, it is a sort of competition in setting records.

At moments it sounds almost like no-motor pilots should feel sorry for the MG
owners with all the troubles they face and how actually disadvantaged they
are.

In my opinion, motorgliders are a different branch of soaring and should be
treated as such in scoring (including records), as long as a working motor is
available as a life-line or just as a convenience help.

Tom BravoMike

I don't think the choices made by tremendously competitive pilots flying for
world records over jungles tell us anything about the "mindset" that Bob has
made the centerpiece here. Record flying and contest flying require very
different approach, after all. What would Ohlmann and Clement have done if
motorgliders were prohibited? I don't know, but listening to Clement at the SSA
convention, I got the impression it was convenience and not jungle crash
avoidance that made the motorgliders attractive; also, motorgliders can go to
higher wing loadings in the Open Class, so maybe that was the performance
advantage they sought.

No motorglider pilot has asked anyone to feel sorry for us; in fact, we believe
we are fortunate that we can afford to own one. What we've tried to do is
educate people about the reasons we own motorgliders. It's been a lot harder
than I thought: Bob is the epitome of the "stick to petrified positions" you
mentioned.

I assume the remark that got your attention is "push a little harder" if you
have a motor? That's what I and others keep telling you: knowing you can avoid a
retrieve is a great convenience. As the speaker said, you can do more and better
soaring because of that. But there are other ways to get that advantage, like
having a good crew, or a tow plane that can come get you, or a better glider
that lets you fly farther. He wasn't talking about competitions, but getting
more out of soaring day. Wouldn't you like to do more and better soaring?

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

On Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 5:22:28 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 4/24/2021 12:12 PM, Tom BravoMike wrote:
On Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 11:25:45 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
Yes, a motor can extend a flight that would have been terminated and get
you home. That extension is not a soaring flight, does not count for
contests including OLC, so once again, the advantage is convenience. No
competitive advantage, no safety advantage. Far from degrading the sport,
motorgliders have kept it alive, 80% of new purchases are motorgliders..
This is a choice you have made, you seem envious or resentful of people who
have made other choices in glider purchase. If you want to see thin skin,
look in the mirror. I'm perfectly happy with you flying a non-motorglider.
It is you who are criticizing me for making a different choice.

Just as I had predicted earlier in the discussion, we stick to our petrified
positions. "Show me evidence... No competitive advantage, no safety
advantage..." Denials, denials.

What evidence will you accept? No different mindset? Have you watched the
video I pointed to? What the guy says at 26:36

https://youtu.be/hYXeMpQB2l0

Do you really believe Klaus Ohlmann and Jean-Marie Clément would have set
their records in the Andes in a "pure" sailplane? Instead, they flew each a
Nimbus 4DM, I believe. "No safety advantage" - really? Will you say it's a
special case? Well, it is a sort of competition in setting records.

At moments it sounds almost like no-motor pilots should feel sorry for the MG
owners with all the troubles they face and how actually disadvantaged they
are.

In my opinion, motorgliders are a different branch of soaring and should be
treated as such in scoring (including records), as long as a working motor is
available as a life-line or just as a convenience help.

Tom BravoMike
I don't think the choices made by tremendously competitive pilots flying for
world records over jungles tell us anything about the "mindset" that Bob has
made the centerpiece here. Record flying and contest flying require very
different approach, after all. What would Ohlmann and Clement have done if
motorgliders were prohibited? I don't know, but listening to Clement at the SSA
convention, I got the impression it was convenience and not jungle crash
avoidance that made the motorgliders attractive; also, motorgliders can go to
higher wing loadings in the Open Class, so maybe that was the performance
advantage they sought.

No motorglider pilot has asked anyone to feel sorry for us; in fact, we believe
we are fortunate that we can afford to own one. What we've tried to do is
educate people about the reasons we own motorgliders. It's been a lot harder
than I thought: Bob is the epitome of the "stick to petrified positions" you
mentioned.

I assume the remark that got your attention is "push a little harder" if you
have a motor? That's what I and others keep telling you: knowing you can avoid a
retrieve is a great convenience. As the speaker said, you can do more and better
soaring because of that. But there are other ways to get that advantage, like
having a good crew, or a tow plane that can come get you, or a better glider
that lets you fly farther. He wasn't talking about competitions, but getting
more out of soaring day. Wouldn't you like to do more and better soaring?
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
Eric, thanks for the reply, we probably have more in common than you realize, #1 avoiding a retrieve, # 2 getting home for dinner, #3 the mindset advantage, #4 the performance advantage. #5 getting more out of a soaring day.
I have flown with many good glide pilots, some have competed in the WGC and one was a national champion. Contest flying means nothing to me, the best damn glider pilot I ever knew never flew a contest, but would wax your as on any given day. His name was Bennie Flowers and a few old timers remember this guy, I know Burt does.
As I started this thread that you expanded my main goal was to educate you motor glider pilots that there are still a few of us Jurassic park guys around that are doing it quiet well, even Old Bob. Now if any of you purist have switched to the MG status please let me know if you have an ASG29 pure glide that you would like to sell.
Remember I am just a poor old man, like the dinosaur of the past. Ha ha ha .. Old Bob

Really? A single quote from a British YouTuber 26 minutes in is proof of your case? Have you flown a few thousand miles cross country in a motorglider? If not what is your experience in them, beyond watching YouTube, that makes you sure of what you assert?

I (we) have said many times that a motorglider *does* give you more freedom because the inconvenience of a retrieve is greatly diminished (provided the motor starts). This has nothing to do with safety (it might not). It has to do with laziness. We went all through this a couple of years ago when MP was accused of using the motor to save himself while setting his many records, an examination of every IGC log for that season proves that accusation complete hogwash.

Now, should motorgliders be put in a separate class for records, on the fact alone that retrieves are easier and more convenient? You could make that argument, but the Pandora's box it opens is extensive: different class for paid crew? Different class for volunteer crew? Different class for gliders without trailers? Different class for a JS3 vs an ASW20?

The reason people are almost exclusively using motorgliders to set records in the Great Basin is that it makes the logistics easier, it has nothing to do with performance, safety, or skill. Come out to Ely and attempt some records in your non motorglider and see. You can fly the same courses at the same speeds, but your failed attempts will be a lot more work for your crew (you will need one), and there are a lot of failed attempts in record flying. You can hire a professional crew for the whole record season for less than the interest on an EB29 or even a ASH31. It'll still be a lot of work.

Old timers remember the days when the dutiful wife would follow Her Man around the countryside in the camper, switching direction at each radio call, to be there for the retrieve. Those days are gone, those wives are gone, replaced by machinery (the motor in the back). That is simply the evolution of a sport. Better get used to it.

On Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 12:12:48 PM UTC-7, Tom BravoMike wrote:
On Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 11:25:45 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
Yes, a motor can extend a flight that would have been terminated and get you home. That extension is not a soaring flight, does not count for contests including OLC, so once again, the advantage is convenience. No competitive advantage, no safety advantage. Far from degrading the sport, motorgliders have kept it alive, 80% of new purchases are motorgliders. This is a choice you have made, you seem envious or resentful of people who have made other choices in glider purchase. If you want to see thin skin, look in the mirror. I'm perfectly happy with you flying a non-motorglider. It is you who are criticizing me for making a different choice.
Just as I had predicted earlier in the discussion, we stick to our petrified positions. "Show me evidence... No competitive advantage, no safety advantage..." Denials, denials.

What evidence will you accept? No different mindset? Have you watched the video I pointed to? What the guy says at 26:36

https://youtu.be/hYXeMpQB2l0

Do you really believe Klaus Ohlmann and Jean-Marie Clément would have set their records in the Andes in a "pure" sailplane? Instead, they flew each a Nimbus 4DM, I believe. "No safety advantage" - really? Will you say it's a special case? Well, it is a sort of competition in setting records.

At moments it sounds almost like no-motor pilots should feel sorry for the MG owners with all the troubles they face and how actually disadvantaged they are.

In my opinion, motorgliders are a different branch of soaring and should be treated as such in scoring (including records), as long as a working motor is available as a life-line or just as a convenience help.

Tom BravoMike

On Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 11:56:11 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
Really? A single quote from a British YouTuber 26 minutes in is proof of your case? Have you flown a few thousand miles cross country in a motorglider? If not what is your experience in them, beyond watching YouTube, that makes you sure of what you assert?

I (we) have said many times that a motorglider *does* give you more freedom because the inconvenience of a retrieve is greatly diminished (provided the motor starts). This has nothing to do with safety (it might not). It has to do with laziness. We went all through this a couple of years ago when MP was accused of using the motor to save himself while setting his many records, an examination of every IGC log for that season proves that accusation complete hogwash.

Now, should motorgliders be put in a separate class for records, on the fact alone that retrieves are easier and more convenient? You could make that argument, but the Pandora's box it opens is extensive: different class for paid crew? Different class for volunteer crew? Different class for gliders without trailers? Different class for a JS3 vs an ASW20?

The reason people are almost exclusively using motorgliders to set records in the Great Basin is that it makes the logistics easier, it has nothing to do with performance, safety, or skill. Come out to Ely and attempt some records in your non motorglider and see. You can fly the same courses at the same speeds, but your failed attempts will be a lot more work for your crew (you will need one), and there are a lot of failed attempts in record flying. You can hire a professional crew for the whole record season for less than the interest on an EB29 or even a ASH31. It'll still be a lot of work..

Old timers remember the days when the dutiful wife would follow Her Man around the countryside in the camper, switching direction at each radio call, to be there for the retrieve. Those days are gone, those wives are gone, replaced by machinery (the motor in the back). That is simply the evolution of a sport. Better get used to it.
On Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 12:12:48 PM UTC-7, Tom BravoMike wrote:
On Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 11:25:45 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
Yes, a motor can extend a flight that would have been terminated and get you home. That extension is not a soaring flight, does not count for contests including OLC, so once again, the advantage is convenience. No competitive advantage, no safety advantage. Far from degrading the sport, motorgliders have kept it alive, 80% of new purchases are motorgliders. This is a choice you have made, you seem envious or resentful of people who have made other choices in glider purchase. If you want to see thin skin, look in the mirror. I'm perfectly happy with you flying a non-motorglider. It is you who are criticizing me for making a different choice.
Just as I had predicted earlier in the discussion, we stick to our petrified positions. "Show me evidence... No competitive advantage, no safety advantage..." Denials, denials.

What evidence will you accept? No different mindset? Have you watched the video I pointed to? What the guy says at 26:36

https://youtu.be/hYXeMpQB2l0

Do you really believe Klaus Ohlmann and Jean-Marie Clément would have set their records in the Andes in a "pure" sailplane? Instead, they flew each a Nimbus 4DM, I believe. "No safety advantage" - really? Will you say it's a special case? Well, it is a sort of competition in setting records..

At moments it sounds almost like no-motor pilots should feel sorry for the MG owners with all the troubles they face and how actually disadvantaged they are.

In my opinion, motorgliders are a different branch of soaring and should be treated as such in scoring (including records), as long as a working motor is available as a life-line or just as a convenience help.

Tom BravoMike

Good afternoon Jon, I hope you are doing well and enjoying the afternoon out on the left coast. Let Old Bob give you a fair warning. Be aware, the women of the WSPA might just come after you in reference to the, "Your Man'", comment. You could be called a sexist, a pig, be cursed at, receive hate mail, and many more pleasantries from the radical group. Take care and best soaring. Old Bob

Bob as another said - better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it - this is a rule that is most commonly applied to a big industry "elsewhere." I carry my polymer ballast with me in case of an unfriendly landout location in my motorglider. The added benefit is I can go for a flight when no one is home at the club. Or when the towplane is down.

If you don't want to fly at all - unless it's in a pure sailplane, which I can get - maybe one day humor me and let's go have fun man! No tow pilot required, but it is desired. I'll even give you a headset and pay for the Greta 2 stroke oil and evil, evil gasoline.

I really want to thank you for helping convince me to buy a motorglider! See you at the club man! I hope you get some more flights in soon. I guess it'll take a tow pilot to make that happen? Or will you cave and go for a flight with me? No photos will be taken for Seminole Lake to see. I promise.. shhhhh