UK2 ER219 Supermarine Spitfire to US Shaibah.jpg

On Wed, 1 May 2013 14:50:52 +0100, Ramsman wrote
(in article ):

Morgan & Shacklady's Spitfire The History gives basic details of every
aircraft. ER219 is not shown as going to the USAAF, but was struck off
charge on 30-4-43. I think it's probable that these stars are Operation
Torch markings, although that was from 8-11-42. But why Shaibah in that
case, unless that's where aircraft were scrapped?

Sorry I didn't make it clear enough in my post but the Spitfires were crated
up in N Africa, shipped to Iraq and re-assembled in Shaibah (and possibly
elsewhere). They were then flown over the border to Iran where they were
collected by the Soviet Air Force.

The March '43 date you quote corresponds to the timing in the Russian URL I
listed.

Thanks very much to you all for the information, I didn't know that the spits that
went to Russia went via Iraq / Iran.

I have learnt much this morning, thanks again.
--
Jeff Cochrane - VK4XA
East Innisfail
QLD, Australia
"Netko" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 1 May 2013 14:50:52 +0100, Ramsman wrote
(in article ):

Morgan & Shacklady's Spitfire The History gives basic details of every
aircraft. ER219 is not shown as going to the USAAF, but was struck off
charge on 30-4-43. I think it's probable that these stars are Operation
Torch markings, although that was from 8-11-42. But why Shaibah in that
case, unless that's where aircraft were scrapped?

Sorry I didn't make it clear enough in my post but the Spitfires were crated
up in N Africa, shipped to Iraq and re-assembled in Shaibah (and possibly
elsewhere). They were then flown over the border to Iran where they were
collected by the Soviet Air Force.

The March '43 date you quote corresponds to the timing in the Russian URL I
listed.

On 01/05/2013 19:28, Netko wrote:
On Wed, 1 May 2013 14:50:52 +0100, Ramsman wrote
(in article ):

Morgan & Shacklady's Spitfire The History gives basic details of every
aircraft. ER219 is not shown as going to the USAAF, but was struck off
charge on 30-4-43. I think it's probable that these stars are Operation
Torch markings, although that was from 8-11-42. But why Shaibah in that
case, unless that's where aircraft were scrapped?

Sorry I didn't make it clear enough in my post but the Spitfires were crated
up in N Africa, shipped to Iraq and re-assembled in Shaibah (and possibly
elsewhere). They were then flown over the border to Iran where they were
collected by the Soviet Air Force.

The March '43 date you quote corresponds to the timing in the Russian URL I
listed.


The data in the book are taken from RAF Form 78, which lists the
movement of an aircraft from unit to unit, and had ER219 been
transferred to another air force it would have been shown as such on the
form.

There are lists of all aircraft transferred to other air forces, and
ER219 does not appear as going to either the USAAF or the USSR, so I
think we can assume that it never left the RAF.
--
Peter

On Wed, 1 May 2013 23:48:38 +0100, Ramsman wrote
(in article ):

There are lists of all aircraft transferred to other air forces, and
ER219 does not appear as going to either the USAAF or the USSR, so I
think we can assume that it never left the RAF.

Fair enough, but I was trying to work out how a batch of Spitfires, carrying
what appear to be Torch stars, ended up in Iraq. The answer 'Transfer to the
Soviet Union' fits all the known facts.

As for ER219 itself, this may have been one of those Spitfires which Zlobin
notes as having been destroyed en route to the handover in Abadan, assuming,
of course, that it hadn't previously met its end (for whatever reason) at
Shaibah.

Finally, here's a photo inherited by the USAF which shows Abadan in Persia
with a bunch of rebranded A-20s, P-40s and AT-6s. Probably 1943.

On 02/05/2013 14:39, Netko wrote:
On Wed, 1 May 2013 23:48:38 +0100, Ramsman wrote
(in article ):

There are lists of all aircraft transferred to other air forces, and
ER219 does not appear as going to either the USAAF or the USSR, so I
think we can assume that it never left the RAF.


Unfortunately no unit is shown as operating ER219, beyond its being in
North-West Africa.

Fair enough, but I was trying to work out how a batch of Spitfires, carrying
what appear to be Torch stars, ended up in Iraq. The answer 'Transfer to the
Soviet Union' fits all the known facts.

As for ER219 itself, this may have been one of those Spitfires which Zlobin
notes as having been destroyed en route to the handover in Abadan, assuming,
of course, that it hadn't previously met its end (for whatever reason) at
Shaibah.

Finally, here's a photo inherited by the USAF which shows Abadan in Persia
with a bunch of rebranded A-20s, P-40s and AT-6s. Probably 1943.


It's a pity the quality of the photo is too poor to read other serials,
as knowing them might lead to further information.

--
Peter

On Thu, 2 May 2013 15:40:15 +0100, Ramsman wrote
(in article ):

It's a pity the quality of the photo is too poor to read other serials,
as knowing them might lead to further information.

Agreed. Incidentally, adding to the (dis)information about ER219, Google
tells me that Ventura Publications, a New Zealand company, used to produce a
set of decals for this aircraft which described it as a USAAF machine.

Also, the IWM catalogue mentions a film which adds a new twist to the story
of Spitfires at Shaibah in early 1943. According to this, the Spitfires
(some? all?) were not a straightforward transfer from the RAF to the Soviet
AF, instead being a swap for US A-20s intended for the USSR. The description
reads:

"British Spitfires being checked in a RAF workshop at Shaibah, Iraq before
being sent to Russia (in exchange for forty Boston Bombers diverted from Iran
to Egypt while en route to Russia)".

Finally, the film has a scene in which an "RAF Bullseye is sprayed over and a
Red Star stencilled in its place". I haven't seen the film (it's not
available on-line) so this may be an accurate account but it may just
represent an assumption about what the red star was replacing.

http://m.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060034712