Options After Items Flagged as Unairworthy (was TBO and Airworthiness)

(I decided to move this to a separate thread since its a bigger issue
than engine TBO.)

Matt...I read the Avweb article. The author correctly notes that
whether its a car or plane, you should always insist on seeing or
discussing the problems with the mechanic so there are no surprises
later. However, in a car, you can simply tell the mechanic "Thanks but
no thanks" on some recommended repairs and move on. But for a plane,
once the item has been flagged as an airworthiness issue, you have
little choice. You can talk to the A&P all you want and until you are
blue in the face (as I did in the case below on every single item on
the estimate). But if he says "Sorry...in my view, these must be
repaired", you have only two options...suck it up, or close up the
plane, go thru the hassle I describe below, take it someplace else,
and hope the new shop will be a little more lenient.

In the case of our Warrior annual, I was NOT interested in cutting
safety corners. But there were items (like a small dent in one of the
exhaust risers--$300) that had been there for many years but Landmark
decided to take a hard line on what was "airworthy" vs "suggested".
The pilot has little say in this. As a result, our normal annual of ~
$1800 went up to $6000. (Obviously, we won't be using them next
year!)

--Jeff


-------------------------

Jeff B wrote:
While not directly related to the engine/TBO question, I ran into this
exact problem on the recent annual for my 79 Warrior. We used a new
FBO this year (Landmark) and they took a "lets make it new" approach
on the initial inspection and estimate. The list of issues ran 3
pages long even though many had been there for many years and signed
off by 2 other smaller FBOs in previous annuals. The cost estimate
was 3x what we were used to!!


THe point being that after I recovered from heart failure over the
estimate, we considered having Landmark close it up and take it
somewhere else. But we learned that once a shop flags something as
unairworthy, its too late to "change your mind", ignore the
inspection, and start over someplace else. You can go elsewhere, but
an A&P must now sign off that the plane is safe to fly and ferry to
another shop, a FSDO has to sign off on a ferry permit, and then the
new A&P must either the fix the flagged items or note in the logbook
why he/she didn't agree with the initial diagnosis. This process
requires permits, signatures, more permits, more signatures. (In the
end, we decided it was too hard and we let Landmark suck our wallets
dry.)


Matt Barrow wrote:

http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/189710-1.html

The Savvy Aviator #18: Avoid an Annual Calamity


Pay particular attention to the part titeld, "Mismanagement Of The
Annual"

You ABSOLUTELY do have an option...
First you order the mechanic to button up the plane and sign off on
his performed work in the logbook and his list of discrepancies, and
you pay the bill...

**Remember, the Annual Inspection is only that - an inspection... It
is not graven in stone that the first mechanic is the only one who can
correct the discrepancies...**

Then you move your plane out of his shop and secure it...
Then you call the FSDO for your area and ask for a ferry permit for
this plane because of a dispute with the A&I... You read him/her the
list of discrepancies, such as the small dent in the exhaust that has
been there for a decade, etc. and ask for the ferry permit to move the
plane to another shop for a fresh inspection...
The odds are 99 & 44/100% that you will get the ferry permit...
The odds are also good that the FSDO inspector will stop at the new
mechanics shop to have a look so be sure your VOR checks are logged
and your ARROW is straight and shiny... Once the new mechanic and the
inspector agree on what is an actual discrepancy you get the work
done, and your plane is now airworthy again..

denny

On Apr 14, 11:49 am, "Denny" wrote:
You ABSOLUTELY do have an option...
First you order the mechanic to button up the plane and sign off on
his performed work in the logbook and his list of discrepancies, and
you pay the bill...

**Remember, the Annual Inspection is only that - an inspection... It
is not graven in stone that the first mechanic is the only one who can
correct the discrepancies...**

Then you move your plane out of his shop and secure it...
Then you call the FSDO for your area and ask for a ferry permit for
this plane because of a dispute with the A&I... You read him/her the
list of discrepancies, such as the small dent in the exhaust that has
been there for a decade, etc. and ask for the ferry permit to move the
plane to another shop for a fresh inspection...
The odds are 99 & 44/100% that you will get the ferry permit...
The odds are also good that the FSDO inspector will stop at the new
mechanics shop to have a look so be sure your VOR checks are logged
and your ARROW is straight and shiny... Once the new mechanic and the
inspector agree on what is an actual discrepancy you get the work
done, and your plane is now airworthy again..

denny

You didn't read my original carefully. I didn't say you had NO
options, but rather your options are limited. You can either A) "suck
it up" and let the shop do the work, OR B) go thru the process that we
both described with ferry permits, etc. But if you choose B, in
addition to the hassles of permits, signatures, reviews, etc., you
have to ask yourself whether taking it someplace else will really make
enough of a difference to make all those time-consuming hassles
worthwhile? In the end, will you save $50 or 50%?? No way to know
what the 2nd shop will insist on fixing or let pass. In my case,
since my partners and I have normal day jobs with limited time to
spend calling and driving somewhere to sign forms, we decided to go
with option A...especially since the 2nd shop was booked solid for 6
weeks which would have kept us grounded waiting.

My major point is that once items are flagged as unairworthy during an
inspection, the comparison between cars and planes no longer applies
and the hassle-factor goes up considerably. A flagged item cannot be
ignored by the owner (like a recommendation from your car shop to
replace a fan belt.) A logbook entry is required...either after
repair by the original shop, or by an explanation from a 2nd shop why
its not necessary.

--Jeff

In article . com,
"JB" wrote:

You didn't read my original carefully. I didn't say you had NO
options, but rather your options are limited. You can either A) "suck
it up" and let the shop do the work, OR B) go thru the process that we
both described with ferry permits, etc. But if you choose B, in
addition to the hassles of permits, signatures, reviews, etc., you
have to ask yourself whether taking it someplace else will really make
enough of a difference to make all those time-consuming hassles
worthwhile? In the end, will you save $50 or 50%?? No way to know
what the 2nd shop will insist on fixing or let pass. In my case,
since my partners and I have normal day jobs with limited time to
spend calling and driving somewhere to sign forms, we decided to go
with option A...especially since the 2nd shop was booked solid for 6
weeks which would have kept us grounded waiting.

Even if it would cost me more to go the ferry route, I wouldn't let the
first shop rip me off.

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

Denny wrote:


Then you move your plane out of his shop and secure it...
Then you call the FSDO for your area and ask for a ferry permit for
this plane because of a dispute with the A&I... You read him/her the
list of discrepancies, such as the small dent in the exhaust that has
been there for a decade, etc. and ask for the ferry permit to move the
plane to another shop for a fresh inspection...
The odds are 99 & 44/100% that you will get the ferry permit...


denny



I got in a dispute at annual once and took this path. ('Annual' might
be an exaggeration since the plane was sitting untouched after I had
been promised repeatedly that getting to it in time wouldn't be a
problem.) Unless things have changed or my memory is playing tricks on
me, the form that the FSDO willingly faxed to me still had to be signed
by either an A&E or an IA. In retrospect, I also wonder what the
insurance company would have had to say if anything had gone wrong?

Tom

On Apr 14, 1:26 pm, Bob Noel
wrote:
In article . com,

"JB" wrote:
You didn't read my original carefully. I didn't say you had NO
options, but rather your options are limited. You can either A) "suck
it up" and let the shop do the work, OR B) go thru the process that we
both described with ferry permits, etc. But if you choose B, in
addition to the hassles of permits, signatures, reviews, etc., you
have to ask yourself whether taking it someplace else will really make
enough of a difference to make all those time-consuming hassles
worthwhile? In the end, will you save $50 or 50%?? No way to know
what the 2nd shop will insist on fixing or let pass. In my case,
since my partners and I have normal day jobs with limited time to
spend calling and driving somewhere to sign forms, we decided to go
with option A...especially since the 2nd shop was booked solid for 6
weeks which would have kept us grounded waiting.



Even if it would cost me more to go the ferry route, I wouldn't let the
first shop rip me off.

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

I agree what Denny says with the following exception-

After you get a discrepancy list from the IA, and the IA signs the log
book,the annual inspection is complete. No other inspection is
required.
At this point, the list of discrepancies needs to be attended to and
signed off by any licensed A&P, once this is done, the aircraft is
airworthy.
It's up to the A&P how the repairs are to be made.

I agree what Denny says with the following exception-

After you get a discrepancy list from the IA, and the IA signs the log
book,the annual inspection is complete. No other inspection is
required.


Ya know, this is an issue that has been debated... In theory you are
correct per the regs... Most, if not all, IA's will argue that you are
wrong, though... A bit of self serving in their part...

denny

In retrospect, I also wonder what the
insurance company would have had to say if anything had gone wrong?

Tom

We are getting deep into 'what if's', but think it through... The Ins.
Co. says the plane must be kept legally airworthy to be covered for
inflight risk... Who defines what is/not airworthy - the FAA... The
form you have from the FAA says it IS legally airworthy for the
duration of that listed flight...

denny

Denny wrote:



We are getting deep into 'what if's', but think it through... The Ins.
Co. says the plane must be kept legally airworthy to be covered for
inflight risk...

As defined by your state. Many, if not most, states will force an
insurer to pay up if there's an accident and the plane is out of annual
if the cause of the accident had nothing to do with the fact the plane
was/was not in annual.

Denny wrote:
In retrospect, I also wonder what the
insurance company would have had to say if anything had gone wrong?

Tom

We are getting deep into 'what if's', but think it through... The Ins.
Co. says the plane must be kept legally airworthy to be covered for
inflight risk... Who defines what is/not airworthy - the FAA... The
form you have from the FAA says it IS legally airworthy for the
duration of that listed flight...

Maybe not. Every policy I've had stated that the airplane must comply with
its standard airworthiness certificate. If it's out of annual, it's out of
compliance. A special airworthiness certificate (represented by the Ferry
Permit) is not the same as the standard airworthiness certificate. At least
according to the aviation insurance policies I've had experience with.

I've made flights under ferry permits and in all cases, the insurance
companies had to approve the flight and fax a waiver.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
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