Ban the CNE Airshow

In article ,
Garry O wrote:

Canadian International Air Show :-)
http://www.cias.org/
One of things that injects hundreds of thousands of dollars (probably
millions) into the local economy every year.

You seem to be knowledgable about the technical aspects, but I don't
think the quantity of money involved is very significant. How many
people come to Toronto just for this airshow, and not the CNE per se?
Surely far fewer than for many other events like Caribana and the Gay
Pride celebrations. And hundreds of thousands of dollars isn't all that
much these days, y'know. It costs on the order of half a million to
buy a very ordinary small old house on a tiny lot in downtown Toronto.
Even a downtown condo costs about that much. In an economy of more than
2 million people in Toronto and about 8-10 million in the GTA, even a
few million dollars isn't very much.

I live several miles north of the site, and I've put up with the noise
for decades. When the planes turn around between stunts, they do so
over my house and a lot of other densely populated terrain in downtown
Toronto -- probably some of the most densely populated terrain in Canada.

This year the noise was substantially worse than it's ever been. I could
feel the porch floorboards vibrating under my feet on some passes,
as well as a sort of vibration in my bones and chest. The noise level
was often painful, and it kept setting off car alarms. This is really
unacceptable, even if it's "only" six days.

We took some photos of the planes causing the most problems as they flew
overhead, and they had US NAVY painted on the undersides. Perhaps this
troupe flew much lower than usual.

I'd like to know if any effort is made to minimize noise by, for example,
doing as much of the turning as possible over the lake, or at higher
altitudes. I think there should be limits set on the intensity of noise
at ground level away from the site of the actual show -- these fliers
should be able to modify their performances to meet rules that make
them less of a problem for the hundreds of thousands of people under
their flight paths who are not interested in the airshow. It's not
like it's taking place in a rural area where the spectators outnumber
the uninvolved.

I suspect that if some significant effort at noise abatement isn't made,
the airshow may indeed be banned. If the CIAS isn't willing to do so,
they may have to find another venue for the show.

"BERNIE THE BUNION" wrote in message
...


What is the CNE air show???

Canadian National Exhibition

And to the rec.aviation folks, your being trolled by an idiot.

Which one of you?

And to the rec.aviation folks, your being trolled by an idiot.

Yeah, way to toss ad hominems just because you disagree with opinions.
Reflects poorly on you. When someone is trying to engage you in
intelligent conversation

WHAT INTELLIGENT CONVERSATIONS......???????

The direct health impacts of military jet fuel, which is sprayed
directly over us in copious quantities of aerosol for six days each
year, are well documented

As apposed to the air pollution that comes from all those cars that run
through Toronto 24 hours a day every day of the year.

If your going to use that weak arguement then shouldn't you be whining
about how much pollution comes from the Pearson (intenational) airport.

Take those guys on first and see how far you get in the various general
newsgroups you crossposted too.

Then go after diesel trucks and busses, then taxis.

Once you have gotten those polluters off the road then come back here
and go after a six day airshow enjoyed by millions of your fellow
citizens.

Until then put a sock in it you idiot.

BERNIE THE BUNION wrote:
And to the rec.aviation folks, your being trolled by an idiot.

Yeah, way to toss ad hominems just because you disagree with opinions.
Reflects poorly on you. When someone is trying to engage you in
intelligent conversation

WHAT INTELLIGENT CONVERSATIONS......???????

The direct health impacts of military jet fuel, which is sprayed
directly over us in copious quantities of aerosol for six days each
year, are well documented

As apposed to the air pollution that comes from all those cars that run
through Toronto 24 hours a day every day of the year.

If your going to use that weak arguement then shouldn't you be whining
about how much pollution comes from the Pearson (intenational) airport.

Take those guys on first and see how far you get in the various general
newsgroups you crossposted too.

Then go after diesel trucks and busses, then taxis.

Once you have gotten those polluters off the road then come back here
and go after a six day airshow enjoyed by millions of your fellow
citizens.

Millions? Um, no. The CNE had just over ONE million visitors this year,
NOT the just air show. That's 50,000 people a day, so 150,000 max for
the air show days if every single CNE attendee watched the little boy
toys flutter about. Which they didn't.


Until then put a sock in it you idiot.

Yay, I'm an idiot too! Pot--kettle--black....

You, on the other hand, don't know how to read. Or write. (It's
"opposed", not "apposed", among other civilized uses of English you
failed to use.)

What you ignored is that I said MILITARY jet fuel (JP-8). It's 100 times
more poisonous than commercial aviation fuel or automobile fuel, because
those are regulated. The military throws its weight around and instills
fear in people to circumvent regulatory control.

So no. I will go after any unnecessary use of JP-8, the military poison,
as the most urgent threat to the city of Toronto and its 6 million
inhabitants.

In article ,
wrote:
In article ,
Garry O wrote:

Canadian International Air Show :-)
http://www.cias.org/
One of things that injects hundreds of thousands of dollars (probably
millions) into the local economy every year.


Buy this man a round!!!!!!!!!!


I live several miles north of the site, and I've put up with the noise
for decades. When the planes turn around between stunts, they do so
over my house and a lot of other densely populated terrain in downtown
Toronto -- probably some of the most densely populated terrain in Canada.

My point underscored - by the majority of Torontonians. It *has* to be
stopped. Petition is necessary.

My new cause I suppose - wait - not new. I've been beating this tree
trunk for more than 13 years.


This year the noise was substantially worse than it's ever been. I could
feel the porch floorboards vibrating under my feet on some passes,
as well as a sort of vibration in my bones and chest. The noise level
was often painful, and it kept setting off car alarms. This is really
unacceptable, even if it's "only" six days.

Windows vibrating. Every life form flying or running terrified. Worse than
the worst of thunderstorms. Truly insane "entertainment". For what?
The pathetic rotting carcass of CNE coffers.


We took some photos of the planes causing the most problems as they flew
overhead, and they had US NAVY painted on the undersides. Perhaps this
troupe flew much lower than usual.

Ya think? I was told fines were levied. I've checked for a news story
about this but have yet to pun down the actual story. The DB level cuased
ringing in the ears for a good while after the assholes landed.

I'd like to know if any effort is made to minimize noise by, for example,
doing as much of the turning as possible over the lake, or at higher
altitudes. I think there should be limits set on the intensity of noise
at ground level away from the site of the actual show -- these fliers
should be able to modify their performances to meet rules that make
them less of a problem for the hundreds of thousands of people under
their flight paths who are not interested in the airshow. It's not
like it's taking place in a rural area where the spectators outnumber
the uninvolved.


The rediculous spectacle has to be relocated to an area where there is no
chance of thousands of people being incinerated from *another*
catastrophic crash. It is the repugnant CNE cash greedy that insists on
this annual Russian roulette show being located over the city core.
All important box office sales to keep pumping life into a truly mundane
"exhibition". We do not need supersonic military aircraft formation flying
over our city. Period.

I suspect that if some significant effort at noise abatement isn't made,
the airshow may indeed be banned. If the CIAS isn't willing to do so,
they may have to find another venue for the show.


Petition.

Great followup sir!


--
Master of Puppets - Burkina Faso Hellraisers - www.thescambaiter.com
DENSA Life Achievement ø Am I the only one with half a brain?

In article ,
Michael Ross wrote:
Garry O wrote:
"BERNIE THE BUNION" wrote in message
...


What is the CNE air show???

Canadian National Exhibition

And to the rec.aviation folks, your being trolled by an idiot.

we figured that :-)


Yeah, way to toss ad hominems just because you disagree with opinions.
Reflects poorly on you. When someone is trying to engage you in
intelligent conversation, you can either respond intelligently or grab
hold and squeeze your nuts until the urge to say something stupid has
passed.

Canadian International Air Show :-)
http://www.cias.org/
One of things that injects hundreds of thousands of dollars (probably
millions) into the local economy every year.

What no one is talking about here is the health impact of military jet
fuel. Any dollars "injected" are spent many times over in health care.

The direct health impacts of military jet fuel, which is sprayed
directly over us in copious quantities of aerosol for six days each
year, are well documented in Toxicologic Assessment of Jet-Propulsion
Fuel 8, Subcommittee on Jet-Propulsion Fuel 8, Committee on Toxicology,
National Research Council (National Academies Press, 2003). It's
available here, free of charge:
http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=10578

Of the many components of JP-8: benzene, naphthalene, Poly-Aromatic
Hydrocarbons, heavy metals (lead), countless known carcinogens,
mutagens, neurotoxins, immuno-suppressants, irritants, etc...

6 days, perhaps a dozen jets flying over a 2 to four hour period.
How many tons of toxins? I'm sure the math isn't hard to calculate.

Don't bother, *Tons* will suffice.


The air show website arrogantly semi-apologizes for the noise and
"disturbance" during this week. It ignores the health issues and points
out the financial benefits. Financial benefits to whom? Every single
cent Toronto pockets from the air show will be spent many times over in
the future for its consequences. As just one example, the neurotoxins
spewed today will without a doubt contribute to the incidence of
schizophrenia, which in turn will grow the number of homeless in the
city, costing us money in countless ways.

It is time for this arrogance and frivolous destruction of human life to
stop. This is not a war zone. This is not pollution by necessity and
military dictum. This is boys playing with toys and whimpering when
adults take the toys away because they are harmful to society.


One of those toys - like many before that have hit terra firma in
TORONTO, will level an entire neighborhood. A slight tick of the wings
of two separate toys is all it will take, or a brief moment of wind shear.
Anyone recall pictures of the World Trade Center swallowing a couple of
low speed commercial aircraft not so long ago?

Get them to hell away from my neighborhood now.



--
Master of Puppets - Burkina Faso Hellraisers - www.thescambaiter.com
DENSA Life Achievement ø Am I the only one with half a brain?

In article ,
Michael Ross wrote:

BERNIE THE BUNION wrote:
And to the rec.aviation folks, your being trolled by an idiot.

Yeah, way to toss ad hominems just because you disagree with opinions.
Reflects poorly on you. When someone is trying to engage you in
intelligent conversation

WHAT INTELLIGENT CONVERSATIONS......???????

The direct health impacts of military jet fuel, which is sprayed
directly over us in copious quantities of aerosol for six days each
year, are well documented

As apposed to the air pollution that comes from all those cars that run
through Toronto 24 hours a day every day of the year.

If your going to use that weak arguement then shouldn't you be whining
about how much pollution comes from the Pearson (intenational) airport.

Take those guys on first and see how far you get in the various general
newsgroups you crossposted too.

Then go after diesel trucks and busses, then taxis.

Once you have gotten those polluters off the road then come back here
and go after a six day airshow enjoyed by millions of your fellow
citizens.

Millions? Um, no. The CNE had just over ONE million visitors this year,
NOT the just air show. That's 50,000 people a day, so 150,000 max for
the air show days if every single CNE attendee watched the little boy
toys flutter about. Which they didn't.

You think that only the people who attend the CNE see the airshow?

How... ...limited of you.



Until then put a sock in it you idiot.

Yay, I'm an idiot too! Pot--kettle--black....

You, on the other hand, don't know how to read. Or write. (It's
"opposed", not "apposed", among other civilized uses of English you
failed to use.)

What you ignored is that I said MILITARY jet fuel (JP-8). It's 100 times
more poisonous than commercial aviation fuel or automobile fuel, because
those are regulated. The military throws its weight around and instills
fear in people to circumvent regulatory control.

So no. I will go after any unnecessary use of JP-8, the military poison,
as the most urgent threat to the city of Toronto and its 6 million
inhabitants.

Citations for this?

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg

In article ,
(Mad as a Box of Frogs) wrote:

In article ,
Michael Ross wrote:
Garry O wrote:
"BERNIE THE BUNION" wrote in message
...


What is the CNE air show???

Canadian National Exhibition

And to the rec.aviation folks, your being trolled by an idiot.

we figured that :-)


Yeah, way to toss ad hominems just because you disagree with opinions.
Reflects poorly on you. When someone is trying to engage you in
intelligent conversation, you can either respond intelligently or grab
hold and squeeze your nuts until the urge to say something stupid has
passed.

Canadian International Air Show :-)
http://www.cias.org/
One of things that injects hundreds of thousands of dollars (probably
millions) into the local economy every year.

What no one is talking about here is the health impact of military jet
fuel. Any dollars "injected" are spent many times over in health care.

The direct health impacts of military jet fuel, which is sprayed
directly over us in copious quantities of aerosol for six days each
year, are well documented in Toxicologic Assessment of Jet-Propulsion
Fuel 8, Subcommittee on Jet-Propulsion Fuel 8, Committee on Toxicology,
National Research Council (National Academies Press, 2003). It's
available here, free of charge:
http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=10578

Of the many components of JP-8: benzene, naphthalene, Poly-Aromatic
Hydrocarbons, heavy metals (lead), countless known carcinogens,
mutagens, neurotoxins, immuno-suppressants, irritants, etc...

6 days, perhaps a dozen jets flying over a 2 to four hour period.
How many tons of toxins? I'm sure the math isn't hard to calculate.

And yet, you don't bother...


Don't bother, *Tons* will suffice.


The air show website arrogantly semi-apologizes for the noise and
"disturbance" during this week. It ignores the health issues and points
out the financial benefits. Financial benefits to whom? Every single
cent Toronto pockets from the air show will be spent many times over in
the future for its consequences. As just one example, the neurotoxins
spewed today will without a doubt contribute to the incidence of
schizophrenia, which in turn will grow the number of homeless in the
city, costing us money in countless ways.

It is time for this arrogance and frivolous destruction of human life to
stop. This is not a war zone. This is not pollution by necessity and
military dictum. This is boys playing with toys and whimpering when
adults take the toys away because they are harmful to society.


One of those toys - like many before that have hit terra firma in
TORONTO, will level an entire neighborhood. A slight tick of the wings
of two separate toys is all it will take, or a brief moment of wind shear.
Anyone recall pictures of the World Trade Center swallowing a couple of
low speed commercial aircraft not so long ago?

Get them to hell away from my neighborhood now.

Unless your "neighbourhood" is the water of the harbour...

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg

Alan Baker wrote:
In article ,
Michael Ross wrote:

BERNIE THE BUNION wrote:
And to the rec.aviation folks, your being trolled by an idiot.
Yeah, way to toss ad hominems just because you disagree with opinions.
Reflects poorly on you. When someone is trying to engage you in
intelligent conversation
WHAT INTELLIGENT CONVERSATIONS......???????

The direct health impacts of military jet fuel, which is sprayed
directly over us in copious quantities of aerosol for six days each
year, are well documented
As apposed to the air pollution that comes from all those cars that run
through Toronto 24 hours a day every day of the year.

If your going to use that weak arguement then shouldn't you be whining
about how much pollution comes from the Pearson (intenational) airport.

Take those guys on first and see how far you get in the various general
newsgroups you crossposted too.

Then go after diesel trucks and busses, then taxis.

Once you have gotten those polluters off the road then come back here
and go after a six day airshow enjoyed by millions of your fellow
citizens.
Millions? Um, no. The CNE had just over ONE million visitors this year,
NOT the just air show. That's 50,000 people a day, so 150,000 max for
the air show days if every single CNE attendee watched the little boy
toys flutter about. Which they didn't.

You think that only the people who attend the CNE see the airshow?

How... ...limited of you.

Until then put a sock in it you idiot.

Yay, I'm an idiot too! Pot--kettle--black....

You, on the other hand, don't know how to read. Or write. (It's
"opposed", not "apposed", among other civilized uses of English you
failed to use.)

What you ignored is that I said MILITARY jet fuel (JP-8). It's 100 times
more poisonous than commercial aviation fuel or automobile fuel, because
those are regulated. The military throws its weight around and instills
fear in people to circumvent regulatory control.

So no. I will go after any unnecessary use of JP-8, the military poison,
as the most urgent threat to the city of Toronto and its 6 million
inhabitants.

Citations for this?

Alan, please take the time to read the entire thread, where you will
find the citations. Or do you mean what dictionary is the word "apposed"
found in?

Michael Ross wrote:
Alan, please take the time to read the entire thread, where you will
find the citations.

I am not Alan, however, you got my curiosity up.
Nowhere, in this thread, or, in the links you posted is any
substantiation that JP-8 is any more toxic than commercial grade Jet-A,
A1, or, even kerosene. I am curious, from where do you derive this
idea. Your link to the study
"Toxicologic Assessment of Jet-Propulsion Fuel 8" actually serves to
debunk the notion that JP-8 is any more toxic than Jet-A.

I am guessing that you have not read the links that you are posting.

Citations?