Crossing an NDB 3 times on an approach?

Would it make sense to cross an NDB 3 times in the completion of an
approach?

I'm thinking where there is a hold in lieu of a PT, you may cross the
NDB, complete a parallel hold entry, cross the NDB a second time, then
do a racetrack with timing and descent, then cross a third time as the
FAF.... Normal ops?

You are officially "in the hold" the first time you cross
the fix {in this case the NDB or a VOR} and if you're
established on the inbound course after intercepting the
course after your teardrop or direct entry, you can proceed
inbound or you have the option at pilot's discretion to go
around until you're established and ready. You can descend
to the approach altitude once you have established inbound,
which is when the needle on a VOR or the course on the NDB
has placed you on the inbound course.

Had the Hendrick pilots gone three times over the NDB [LOM}
they would not have died.



wrote in message
...
| Would it make sense to cross an NDB 3 times in the
completion of an
| approach?
|
| I'm thinking where there is a hold in lieu of a PT, you
may cross the
| NDB, complete a parallel hold entry, cross the NDB a
second time, then
| do a racetrack with timing and descent, then cross a third
time as the
| FAF.... Normal ops?

Jim Macklin wrote:
You are officially "in the hold" the first time you cross
the fix {in this case the NDB or a VOR} and if you're
established on the inbound course after intercepting the
course after your teardrop or direct entry, you can proceed
inbound or you have the option at pilot's discretion to go
around until you're established and ready.

If the hold is for course reversal in lieu of a procedure turn (bold
type, and you have been cleared for the approach, you are only allowed
one circuit in the hold unless you obtain a clearance for more than one
circuit.

(AIM 5-4-9 a 4)

if the altitude change requires more than 500 fpm, the pilot
should request the extra turns. Further the pilot should
not be rushed, if not properly established the options are
to request extra turns or go missed. At a busy airport, the
miss may be needed because of traffic, at a place where you
are the only traffic, ATC will approve what ever you need.

A pilot should know his limitations and those of his
airplane. If you have a lot of altitude to loose, you know
that before you get to the fix and should ask for time and
distance to allow this. Most controllers will as a routine
clearance authorize long legs on the initial clearance if
the airplane is not already at the initial approach
altitude.


"Sam Spade" wrote in message
...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| You are officially "in the hold" the first time you
cross
| the fix {in this case the NDB or a VOR} and if you're
| established on the inbound course after intercepting the
| course after your teardrop or direct entry, you can
proceed
| inbound or you have the option at pilot's discretion to
go
| around until you're established and ready.
|
| If the hold is for course reversal in lieu of a procedure
turn (bold
| type, and you have been cleared for the approach, you are
only allowed
| one circuit in the hold unless you obtain a clearance for
more than one
| circuit.
|
| (AIM 5-4-9 a 4)
|

If the hold is for course reversal in lieu of a procedure turn

.... so if you enter teardrop, turn and establish yourself inbound, you
just continue inbound? The teardrop entry counts as a circuit?

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jim Macklin wrote:

if the altitude change requires more than 500 fpm, the pilot
should request the extra turns. Further the pilot should
not be rushed, if not properly established the options are
to request extra turns or go missed. At a busy airport, the
miss may be needed because of traffic, at a place where you
are the only traffic, ATC will approve what ever you need.

A pilot should know his limitations and those of his
airplane. If you have a lot of altitude to loose, you know
that before you get to the fix and should ask for time and
distance to allow this. Most controllers will as a routine
clearance authorize long legs on the initial clearance if
the airplane is not already at the initial approach
altitude.

If the pilot needs it, requests it, and is granted the clearance, that
is fine.

But, if he arrives at the course reversal hold on altitude, criteria
will protect him from high descent rates.

Jose wrote:

If the hold is for course reversal in lieu of a procedure turn


... so if you enter teardrop, turn and establish yourself inbound, you
just continue inbound? The teardrop entry counts as a circuit?

Jose

Yep!

Gentlemen, to recap, my example was with a parallel entry, where after
first crossing the ndb you are on the non holding side. So where do
you start descent then?

Also, after the first 1 minute and turn back to the holding side, in
the direction of the ndb, you perhaps may decide not to intercept the
inbound course but proceed direct to the fix. So now you proceed
straight in?

On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 14:31:01 -0800, Sam Spade
wrote:

Jim Macklin wrote:
You are officially "in the hold" the first time you cross
the fix {in this case the NDB or a VOR} and if you're
established on the inbound course after intercepting the
course after your teardrop or direct entry, you can proceed
inbound or you have the option at pilot's discretion to go
around until you're established and ready.

If the hold is for course reversal in lieu of a procedure turn (bold
type, and you have been cleared for the approach, you are only allowed
one circuit in the hold unless you obtain a clearance for more than one
circuit.

(AIM 5-4-9 a 4)

Also, after the first 1 minute and turn back to the holding side, in
the direction of the ndb, you perhaps may decide not to intercept the
inbound course but proceed direct to the fix. So now you proceed
straight in?

While it's true that you don't have the benefit of a minute of flying to
determine wind correction, when you are over the NDB you know exactly
where you are and what direction you are facing. If you've approached
it with a 30 degree intercept, you may well have a good idea of what the
winds are. So, yes, I don't see any danger (in most situations) in
proceeding straight in.

This is, of course, different from saying that this is what the rules say.

Jose

--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

That is true, if at the altitude. For example in the case
of the Hendrick crash, the BE 200 was at 5.000 and the
initial is 3600. Then the crew got lost over the LOM and
just did a 360 and never went outbound.



"Sam Spade" wrote in message
...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
|
| if the altitude change requires more than 500 fpm, the
pilot
| should request the extra turns. Further the pilot
should
| not be rushed, if not properly established the options
are
| to request extra turns or go missed. At a busy airport,
the
| miss may be needed because of traffic, at a place where
you
| are the only traffic, ATC will approve what ever you
need.
|
| A pilot should know his limitations and those of his
| airplane. If you have a lot of altitude to loose, you
know
| that before you get to the fix and should ask for time
and
| distance to allow this. Most controllers will as a
routine
| clearance authorize long legs on the initial clearance
if
| the airplane is not already at the initial approach
| altitude.
|
| If the pilot needs it, requests it, and is granted the
clearance, that
| is fine.
|
| But, if he arrives at the course reversal hold on
altitude, criteria
| will protect him from high descent rates.