A proposal to increase membership, cross-country pilots, competitors,and world champions (USA).

On Tuesday, August 12, 2014 9:26:08 AM UTC-4, Bill D wrote:

Both on the ground and in the air, our image is critical to success. The European model is a great place to start - then improve on it.

Okay, fine. What makes the European model go, financially? How would we do this, here in the USA?

-Evan

On Tuesday, August 12, 2014 9:51:40 AM UTC-6, Evan Ludeman wrote:
On Tuesday, August 12, 2014 9:26:08 AM UTC-4, Bill D wrote:



Both on the ground and in the air, our image is critical to success. The European model is a great place to start - then improve on it.



Okay, fine. What makes the European model go, financially? How would we do this, here in the USA?



-Evan

I don't think anyone has all the answers but I have uncovered two.

One, the European clubs get a lot of "sweat equity" from their members who feel an obligation to help the club in whatever way their skills allow. That may be helping with glider maintenance or just mowing the grass - whatever needs done. I've heard it put this way, "Every day, try to leave the glider operation in better shape than when you arrived." That effort just makes it a nice place to be. An example is Elke Fuglsang-Petersen whose writing is often seen at the Soaring Cafe. She obtained a parachute riggers license so she could repack her clubs parachutes.

The second is intensive use of winches which if done well can create a substantial cash flow that can help support the operation.

A third may be that in some countries, tax laws encourage companies to donate equipment. One sees late model Mercedes vehicles used to retrieve winch ropes which, I understand, were donated to the club. In another case, I heard of a club needing a new winch engine. In a few days they found a new Mercedes V10 industrial diesel sitting on their doorstep. In the US we could make something like that work with 501(c)(3) incorporation.

On Tuesday, August 12, 2014 5:06:54 PM UTC-4, Bill D wrote:
On Tuesday, August 12, 2014 9:51:40 AM UTC-6, Evan Ludeman wrote:

On Tuesday, August 12, 2014 9:26:08 AM UTC-4, Bill D wrote:







Both on the ground and in the air, our image is critical to success. The European model is a great place to start - then improve on it.







Okay, fine. What makes the European model go, financially? How would we do this, here in the USA?







-Evan



I don't think anyone has all the answers but I have uncovered two.



One, the European clubs get a lot of "sweat equity" from their members who feel an obligation to help the club in whatever way their skills allow. That may be helping with glider maintenance or just mowing the grass - whatever needs done. I've heard it put this way, "Every day, try to leave the glider operation in better shape than when you arrived." That effort just makes it a nice place to be. An example is Elke Fuglsang-Petersen whose writing is often seen at the Soaring Cafe. She obtained a parachute riggers license so she could repack her clubs parachutes.



The second is intensive use of winches which if done well can create a substantial cash flow that can help support the operation.



A third may be that in some countries, tax laws encourage companies to donate equipment. One sees late model Mercedes vehicles used to retrieve winch ropes which, I understand, were donated to the club. In another case, I heard of a club needing a new winch engine. In a few days they found a new Mercedes V10 industrial diesel sitting on their doorstep. In the US we could make something like that work with 501(c)(3) incorporation.

We have the sweat equity thing covered. And in my experience, this is pretty common in US soaring clubs.

Winches are non-starters at most ops I've been involved in. We don't have the space and more space is prohibitively expensive. Existing airports in the 4500+ range are mostly asphalt, public use, high performance GA, with runway lights and traffic and not really a step up in the "nice to hang out" direction. An old but serviceable tow plane is a hell of a lot more economical than scratching a new 4500x300 airfield out of trees, rocks or farm land.

Soaring ops don't work, business wise, because the utilization of real estate, capital and labor is appallingly bad. Unfortunately, I don't see an easy way to improve this (and neither does anyone else, thus the general shape of things in US soaring).

What's it take to found a religion :-)?

-Evan

On Tuesday, August 12, 2014 7:34:16 PM UTC-6, Evan Ludeman wrote:
On Tuesday, August 12, 2014 5:06:54 PM UTC-4, Bill D wrote:

On Tuesday, August 12, 2014 9:51:40 AM UTC-6, Evan Ludeman wrote:



On Tuesday, August 12, 2014 9:26:08 AM UTC-4, Bill D wrote:















Both on the ground and in the air, our image is critical to success.. The European model is a great place to start - then improve on it.















Okay, fine. What makes the European model go, financially? How would we do this, here in the USA?















-Evan







I don't think anyone has all the answers but I have uncovered two.







One, the European clubs get a lot of "sweat equity" from their members who feel an obligation to help the club in whatever way their skills allow. That may be helping with glider maintenance or just mowing the grass - whatever needs done. I've heard it put this way, "Every day, try to leave the glider operation in better shape than when you arrived." That effort just makes it a nice place to be. An example is Elke Fuglsang-Petersen whose writing is often seen at the Soaring Cafe. She obtained a parachute riggers license so she could repack her clubs parachutes.







The second is intensive use of winches which if done well can create a substantial cash flow that can help support the operation.







A third may be that in some countries, tax laws encourage companies to donate equipment. One sees late model Mercedes vehicles used to retrieve winch ropes which, I understand, were donated to the club. In another case, I heard of a club needing a new winch engine. In a few days they found a new Mercedes V10 industrial diesel sitting on their doorstep. In the US we could make something like that work with 501(c)(3) incorporation.



We have the sweat equity thing covered. And in my experience, this is pretty common in US soaring clubs.



Winches are non-starters at most ops I've been involved in. We don't have the space and more space is prohibitively expensive. Existing airports in the 4500+ range are mostly asphalt, public use, high performance GA, with runway lights and traffic and not really a step up in the "nice to hang out" direction. An old but serviceable tow plane is a hell of a lot more economical than scratching a new 4500x300 airfield out of trees, rocks or farm land.



Soaring ops don't work, business wise, because the utilization of real estate, capital and labor is appallingly bad. Unfortunately, I don't see an easy way to improve this (and neither does anyone else, thus the general shape of things in US soaring).



What's it take to found a religion :-)?



-Evan

There are many county/municipal/private airports of reasonable size where winching is quite feasible. It's pretty easy to lay the rope in the grass verge between the hard surface and the lights. Some have end lights that are easily removed and replaced, allowing the winch to be placed 500 ft or more past the end of the pavement and off to the side. Others have a soft surface parallel to the hard surface. Two gliderports have been donated to foundations in recent years. One is too short for winching. The other should have winching regularly and will hopefully have a winch camp before long. Two winch only chapters have formed in Colorado in the past year. One trains elsewhere and launches from a private strip but is planning on operating also at a longer municipal airport. They are in need of two-seater. Several of the members are from the HG world. The other winches most weekends at a municipal airport and has an interesting cadre of local pilots and EAAers working on their glider ratings. They think it's a hoot!

Frank Whiteley

On Tuesday, August 12, 2014 7:34:16 PM UTC-6, Evan Ludeman wrote:

Winches are non-starters at most ops I've been involved in. We don't have the space and more space is prohibitively expensive. Existing airports in the 4500+ range are mostly asphalt, public use, high performance GA, with runway lights and traffic and not really a step up in the "nice to hang out" direction. An old but serviceable tow plane is a hell of a lot more economical than scratching a new 4500x300 airfield out of trees, rocks or farm land.


-Evan

Evan, with respect, we don't need "Negative Experts" to tell us why it won't work. We need people with the imagination to see how to make it work.

The Winching World column in the October issue of Soaring will address winch economics in detail.

In a different thought-provoking thread, on 8/12/2014 7:34 PM, Evan Ludeman wrote:

Major snippery...
We have the sweat equity thing covered. And in my experience, this is
pretty common in US soaring clubs.

Winches are non-starters at most ops I've been involved in. We don't have
the space and more space is prohibitively expensive. Existing airports in
the 4500+ range are mostly asphalt, public use, high performance GA, with
runway lights and traffic and not really a step up in the "nice to hang
out" direction. An old but serviceable tow plane is a hell of a lot more
economical than scratching a new 4500x300 airfield out of trees, rocks or
farm land.

Soaring ops don't work, business wise, because the utilization of real
estate, capital and labor is appallingly bad. Unfortunately, I don't see
an easy way to improve this (and neither does anyone else, thus the general
shape of things in US soaring).

What's it take to found a religion :-)?

Drifting too far from the topical shore...

Ask Mr. Pastafarian himself, Bobby Henderson. N.B.: Several stories down,
kinda-sorta in E.L.'s neck of the woods, prolly so can Chris Schaeffer of
Pomfret Township (NY? CT?).

http://www.venganza.org/

:-)

As to what this has to do with soaring...it was a good soaring day out here?
Yeah, it's a stretch!

One sees late model Mercedes vehicles used to retrieve winch ropes which, I understand, were donated to the club.
My old club in Germany just took delivery of a brand-spanking new Audi Q5 with the top of the line trim. They use it to retrieve their winch cables. This vehicle and I guess others from other manufacturers were used as test vehicles and don't have a 'VIN', so officially, they don't exist. The Q5 is 'on loan' from Audi and they reserved the right to recall it at any time.
Living near the BMW plant in SC and knowing the now retired VP of production, I asked him if our club could get a nice X5 for our operation. He shuddered at the thought and said that this would be the fastest way to get the Feds, the IRS and lawyers on their tails. So they continue the cruel practice of shredding complete vehicles if a flaw too big to fix within a short time period is detected.
IMHO, introducing winching to the US soaring community is a key for its longtime survival. Our club is winching off a very busy county airport with everything from biz-jets to gyro-planes in attendance and we make it work. We have hosted three winch clinics to promote this economic launch method. One of them was hosted for members of one club and they are seriously working on a plan to acquire a winch.
Quit bitching, roll up your sleeves and do something to make your club or operation a little bit better. As long as a large part of the US glider community thinks that club participation is the act of writing a monthly check and expecting in return the tow plane to appear when they show up with their nice shiny toy, nothing is going to happen! But then again, I may be influenced by my upbringing in one of these socialist European countries, where soaring is well and alive.
Uli

There is a bunch of interesting observations in this thread.


The club of which Evan speaks where I live just below the traffic pattern IS fantastic but doesn't hold a candle to itself in its heyday. When I began soaring a few decades back, PMSC was a complete social hub. Entire families came to the strip and hung out. Kids drove golf carts, significant others sat in a sunscreen house and chewed the fat, some sort of gathering when the ships were put away (yes, you guys still do this which is super cool). People would arrive at the strip even if the family pilot wasn't there so they were able to socialize. We moved the operation as an encampment at least once each month, etc. XC has always been encouraged and retrieves were more common and anticipated. My daughter would be all bummed out of everyone made it home because she loved the adventure of a retrieve. PMSC still has the adventurous spirit and the volunteerism is unmatched. Point being, and others have touched upon this, the airport was an enjoyable place to hang out. Still is and the kids ask to head down to check it out and drive golf carts to move gliders around. While I am not actively flying, my family still enjoys seeing the friends we've made over the years and we regularly get together outside of the soaring environment. Besides flying, soaring has enhanced all aspects of our lives. And in case you are wondering, there are extremely aesthetic individuals who are members. Eye candy for all.

Someone also mentioned improving the product. Not the flying but the entire package regardless of the activity at the strip. This is key to retaining membership in soaring and improving the overall brand.

How does the soaring community, not just some SSA committee, do this?

We can start by being more open in our communication. There have been many mentions of success by unnamed individuals and organizations at unnamed airports. Help each other out. Who, what, where, why; fill us in on the successes. There are too many mistakes to make in a lifetime so let's educate each other on how we overcame the obstacles to achieving success.

It'd be great if the internal bickering would go away; forever. Who cares if the winch or the towplane gets people into the air. What is important is people are flying. The partisanship just kills creativity. It doesn't matter who is correct as long as the brand is improved and people are flying. Help the community find the best solution to the location to help make an operation a success. Winch; towplane; bungee; balloon drop? Doesn't matter as long as the operation works.

If the brand needs a makeover to improve the image then let's figure out how to do this. What does it cost to recover the and install a new interior into the 2-33? To most new-commers the difference between a 2-33 and DG-1000 is the color. Maybe the clubs set in a barren dessert can benefit from having a screenhouse to provide shade for pilots, families and interested parties. Not much but it gives the impression the organization cares about the comfort of people who stop by.

Are these good ideas? I have no idea but we need to put these bits out there so others can tap into them and see if they work at all. Will this all require effort? YES but if we spend as much effort improving the brand as we do cutting each other up we have the problem solved.

Will this take money. Hell yes. Where will we get it? Big question. Liability, tax, and commerce law does get into the way for corporate donations like cars and beer (got to reward the volunteers). 501(c)(3) status helps but setting up individual clubs has shown to be a lot of work. Can one mega club be set up to receive and distribute the cash for brand improvement? It seems like the SSA should be able to do this but if they cannot, skip over them and don't let them be an impediment. I stand on the platform there is a ton of money available in the US. What can we do to improve the brand by not having to throw money at it? What improvements to the brand can we make? This goes well beyond the flying. Before you can land the fish you need to set the hook. Most of the conversations are about what to do with the fish once it is in the boat.

On Wednesday, August 13, 2014 12:23:27 AM UTC-4, GM wrote:
One sees late model Mercedes vehicles used to retrieve winch ropes which, I understand, were donated to the club.

My old club in Germany just took delivery of a brand-spanking new Audi Q5 with the top of the line trim. They use it to retrieve their winch cables. This vehicle and I guess others from other manufacturers were used as test vehicles and don't have a 'VIN', so officially, they don't exist. The Q5 is 'on loan' from Audi and they reserved the right to recall it at any time.

Living near the BMW plant in SC and knowing the now retired VP of production, I asked him if our club could get a nice X5 for our operation. He shuddered at the thought and said that this would be the fastest way to get the Feds, the IRS and lawyers on their tails. So they continue the cruel practice of shredding complete vehicles if a flaw too big to fix within a short time period is detected.

IMHO, introducing winching to the US soaring community is a key for its longtime survival. Our club is winching off a very busy county airport with everything from biz-jets to gyro-planes in attendance and we make it work. We have hosted three winch clinics to promote this economic launch method. One of them was hosted for members of one club and they are seriously working on a plan to acquire a winch.

Quit bitching, roll up your sleeves and do something to make your club or operation a little bit better. As long as a large part of the US glider community thinks that club participation is the act of writing a monthly check and expecting in return the tow plane to appear when they show up with their nice shiny toy, nothing is going to happen! But then again, I may be influenced by my upbringing in one of these socialist European countries, where soaring is well and alive.

Uli

"my upbringing in one of these socialist European countries"

Another interjection of politics, I would prefer to go on a more independent self relent track to a solution. Don't you feel a little silly taking resources from your finite tax base for a high end recreation activity for a privileged few? Let the Q5 go to a needy concern. Each club has their own set of challenges and resources. Local solutions work best.

Dennis

On Tuesday, August 12, 2014 10:08:01 PM UTC-5, Bill D wrote:

Evan, with respect, we don't need "Negative Experts" to tell us why it won't work. We need people with the imagination to see how to make it work.

Bill, with respect, you can't change physics. Our club has a fantastic grass field - but is only 2400' long, with roads and an interstate at each end. So you tell us how a winch will work - because we would love to have one!

And yes I have winch launched - in Germany, France, and the US. And what all those operations had in common was a LONG runway (over 4000').

So we will stick to our trusty Pawnee and Super Cub for now.

Kirk
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