Thermal right, land left

We had a helicopter gumming up the traffic pattern last weekend.. his
traffic pattern was about twice the extended downwind and long final that
the tow plane and gliders were using.

I think he got 1/2 the clue when a glider called and asked.. are you on
downwind or cross country.. I'm not going that far from the airport for base
leg, so I'm turning base behind you.

And then on his next trip around the pattern, the tow plane called and
stated, "Helicopter xyy, if your going that far out on final, I'll turn
behind you and be down and clear before you can get back to the runway.",
the other 1/2 of the clue.

Granted it was student and instructor in the helicopter. But I know students
in airplanes that don't log cross country on down wind.

Helicopters here don't have the advantage of flying the "opposite direction
pattern" to avoid other aircraft. We have parallel runways, and always have
traffic turning either right or left for the right or left runway. Power on
one side, gliders on the other, and the tow plane shares the glider
operations.

All uncontrolled and it works out well for the most part, until other
powered aircraft try to mix it up in the glider pattern, and they forget who
has right of way. But that happens mostly with transients, the local pilots
know.

BT

BT

The reason many patterns are left, and right for helicopters, is
because this is where the pilot has the seat and the best vis in
side-by-side seating.

Really. I fly helicopters with the pilot seat on the right, Bells and
helicopters where the pilot seat is on the left, MD's. We do not change
our
patterns depending on how the seat is loctated. The helicopter is to
avoid the
flow of fixed wing traffic, plus we do not need to fly the same type of
pattern
as a fixed wing aircraft, that is the reason for the type of patterns
flown by
helicopters.

Craig "can turn either right or left" Shaber

In article ,
Shaber CJ wrote:
The reason many patterns are left, and right for helicopters, is
because this is where the pilot has the seat and the best vis in
side-by-side seating.

Really. I fly helicopters with the pilot seat on the right, Bells and
helicopters where the pilot seat is on the left, MD's. We do not change our
patterns depending on how the seat is loctated. The helicopter is to avoid the
flow of fixed wing traffic, plus we do not need to fly the same type of pattern
as a fixed wing aircraft, that is the reason for the type of patterns flown by
helicopters.

Craig "can turn either right or left" Shaber

Change the verbiage to read
"By happy coincidence, a lot of
patterns in the US for airplane traffic are left patterns,
and solo pilots and often PICs with passengers fly from
the left seat and enjoy a better vis."

"Also by happy coincidence, some helicopters avoiding the flow of
fixed wing traffic might make right patterns and have the PIC
or solo pilot in the right seat. This pilot might have
better visibility."

Whether there is causality or not is certainly arguable.
I for one am happy with the coincidence...


--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

I think someone already pointed out that the OFFICIAL guidance for helo pilots
when entering an airport area is "to aviod the flow of fixed wing traffic".
Pretty much means to me that what I've always done when flying a helo is
correct..I just avoid the flow of fixed wing traffic...seems to work out well
for everyone! Who wants to spend all that extra time flyng a totally
unnecessary traffic pattern anyway?

As for the question of land left, thermal right....that certainly smacks of
"rote learning", inflexibility, and of one who needs more training. Will all of
your possible landouts work with that "land left" concept? Wouldn't you want to
be as able to adapt safely and quickly to differing pattern requirements as you
could possibly be? The airport where I fly gliders lands left traffic when
landing south and southeast and then right traffic when landing north and
northwest. What would a person that is only competent to "land left" do in this
situation? Maybe fly only on days where the wind suits his preferred (and
limited) landing abilities?

The point I was making was is there benefits for low-time pilots to
thermal right and land left?

Of course, this is not needed for super experienced pilots who have
developed so much skill that they feel thermals and no longer need a
vario, or fly helicopters when the lift is not that good because they
have all this excess flying skill.

I myself can turn equally well right or left. But I have noticed I
prefer thermalling to the right, and landing to the left. Having over
250 flights, I have plenty of experience going both directions, but
have developed preference for turning one way or another. (as an
aside, I prefer left turns on my motorcycle too....no reason, just
like them better).

But for new pilots, experience is limited. So can habits be quickly
developed to make fast turns when low, and slow turns when high, with
the simple choice of turn direction? Seems like people do what they
practice, so it would be hard to isolate the slow turns in a thermal
with the faster turns while landing unless something fundamentally is
different. Turn direction might be that difference.

Of course, altitude should be the difference (the trees are bigger so
go faster). But based on the number of crashes while landing, this
seems not to be a good indicator that you can't go around the pattern
like you have just been going around thermals. I propose a simple
idea that turn direction might have some safety benefits. Any honest
comment on the idea?

I assume, once experience is gained, the low-time pilot will be
equally good regardless of turn direction. Can the habit be broken
then? Likely, but if the low-time pilot maintains a preference for
turn direction while thermalling or landing, is that bad? I would
suggest most of us have a preference eventually, so what is wrong with
starting out with a specified turn preference being taught?

"John" wrote in message
om...
The point I was making was is there benefits for low-time pilots to
thermal right and land left?


Sorry, John, the answer is no. Pilots, "low-time" or not, shouldn't even
THINK about preferred turn directions whether in thermals or landing
patterns.

Absent a rigging error, (meaning the glider flies straight hands-off - not
forgetting the wing pins) a pilots feeling that he has a "preferred turn
direction" is a red flag warning of a general flying skill deficit that
needs professional attention.

Turns are the simplest and most essential maneuver in a glider pilots
repertoire. If a pilot can't do those very, very well, in both directions,
there is a big problem that very likely extends to other areas.

Even if a pilot is otherwise safe, given the complexity of flying, there is
no way to safely accommodate a turn preference. Turns, both left and right,
should be totally instinctive and easy.

BTW, I've come to really dislike the pejorative term "low-time pilots". I
know many extremely skilled pilots with less than 200 hours and LOTS of
"long-time" pilots whose flying skills have deteriorated to alarming levels.
The later group seems to use the term a great deal. No matter how many
years you have been flying, you are only as good as your last flight.

Bill Daniels

bandit111964 (John) wrote:
I myself can turn equally well right or left. But I
have noticed I prefer thermalling to the right, and
landing to the left. Having over 250 flights, I have
plenty of experience going both directions, but
have developed preference for turning one way or
another. (as an aside, I prefer left turns on my
motorcycle too....no reason, just like them better).
[snip]
Seems like people do what they practice, so it
would be hard to isolate the slow turns in a thermal
with the faster turns while landing unless something
fundamentally is different. [snip]

What is "fundamentally different" is that it is landing, not thermaling ...
even students/new pilots should fully understand the difference. Don't see how
one could confuse the two unless their mind is on something completely
unrelated to flying, and I'm not a CFIG, but I don't think going in one
direction or another consistently is a solution for not paying full attention
to what you're doing.

I know this will sound weird to you guys, especially with the stigma attached
to women pilots ... but going to put on the armor and contribute it anyway:

As a figure skating instructor turned glider pilot, I can say that it is an
accepted fact that few people do things equally in both directions. That's not
to say that the "bad" direction can't be done with great proficiently--it
certainly CAN--but everyone has one direction that feels more natural and
comfortable than the other. Before anyone puts on skates, we ask people to spin
on one foot (on the ground, not the ice)--whichever way they *instinctively*
turn (a bigger percentage of us instinctively turn to the left), that's
considered their "natural direction". In skating like in flying, we work to
make both sides equally competent, but jumps and spins are developed in the
person's natural direction.

When I began flying gliders, I was not surprised to note that when my
instructor said "Show me a turning stall, either direction," I almost always
went left first, likely just because that direction feels more natural to
me--not because I do them more competently that way.

Left alone, most people practice things in the "good" (natural/comfortable)
direction much more regularly than they will in the unnatural direction.
Ideally, people practice the unnatural direction enough that they can perform
maneuvers without hesitation in a solid, efficient and competent way. Sometimes
the so-called "bad" direction even winds up being more technically correct
because the person pays closer attention to that direction to get it right, and
sloppy, bad habits are more likely to form in the direction the person feels
comfortable enough to get a little lazy in! And I've heard motorcyclists
express that same tendency to prefer turns in one direction over another also.

I consider myself a "new pilot" ... licensed for a year. I remember conditions
were such that the majority of my initial landing instruction was done in one
direction. When conditions changed, it felt "backwards" to fly the pattern and
land the other way, and I remember the puzzled looks and chuckles from seasoned
pilots -- "Why? it's the SAME thing!!" At some point long before the checkride,
either direction became "normal" as it should, since conditions favoring one
direction over another can change during any flight. As for thermaling, I have
noticed that whichever direction I begin thermaling in any flight (initial
choice based on where I think the thermal is by the clues, not by which
direction I prefer to turn), that seems to be the direction I end up thermaling
for most of that flight ... but there doesn't seem to be any proclivity for
thermaling in either direction overall.

Just a little food for thought. Okay, you guys ... flame away -- "these damn
women pilots, comparing our soaring to figure skating! ... why isn't she baking
cookies?!"
:-)
--Shirley

On 10 Mar 2004 07:43:38 -0800, (John) wrote:

The point I was making was is there benefits for low-time pilots to
thermal right and land left?

None whatsoever where I fly. Because:

- the general circuit direction depends on the day and the run in
use: it is generally picked so the base leg is flown into the cross
wind assuming there is one. IOW everybody routinely flies circuits in
both directions.

- thermalling direction is set by the first glider into a thermal, so
you'd better be able to thermal in either direction if you don't want
an interview with the CFI and/or some verbals after you land.

Our ab initios are taught to deal with this from the outset and don't
seem to have the problems you describe. You should have trimmed for
landing speed on the downwind leg, so where's the problem with keeping
good airspeed through the base turns?

I myself can turn equally well right or left. But I have noticed I
prefer thermalling to the right, and landing to the left. Having over
250 flights, I have plenty of experience going both directions, but
have developed preference for turning one way or another.

I have made just over 400 flights totalling 275 hours since I started
as an ab initio in 2000 and consider myself pretty much a beginner at
this game.


--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

In article ,
John wrote:
The point I was making was is there benefits for low-time pilots to
thermal right and land left?

This is a naive, but certainly not a stupid question.

If everyone did turn right (or left) in all thermals
(presumably at altitude) this at face value would seem to
reduce the chance of a midair, if both pilots can't
see each other for whatever reason.

I'm not suggesting this, just pointing out there
are reasons why this isn't simply an idea to discard
as foolish...


--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

If we assume we all fly well (either direction), and we all understand
the importance of controlling airspeed during landing, why is the
number one pilot error that is causing injury the stall/spin while
turning to land?

Get away from the idea that you can stall all you want safely at
height, while down low, you no longer have that luxury. Get away from
the idea we all are responsible for flying the plane at all times.
The basic fact is we are all trained and should be able to land
safely.....yet, repeatedly, the same errors are being made by stalling
during the landing pattern.

Is it pilot distraction that creates a laspes in monitoring airspeed?
Or is it habit?

With any physical activity, people develop habits thru repetion. Turn
right 100 times slowly, then turn right fast...it will feel different.
Will you instinctively slow down the fast turn to match the previous
100 slow turns? I think that is very possible.

Here is a way to check your habits. Next booming day, try 10-20 turns
to right at say 40 knots, then speed up to 65 knots. Can you hold 65
knots in a right turn now? Likely, but I bet you glance at the
airspeed a little more than you did in the previous 10-20 turns.

It just seems logical to me if you spend several hours flying slow,
you will tend to continue flying slow unless you specifically make
yourself fly faster. Get distracted, and you will go right back to
flying slow. Talking habits, here.

Is this habit of flying slow contributing to the stall/spin problem
when landing?

Many good points here.

I recommend establishing the pattern airspeed a few minutes before actually
entering the pattern. This gives time to get used to the sound and feel of the
pattern speed. Also, when doing turns in the pattern, I teach to monitor CAB,
for Coordinate, Airspeed, and Bank.

Jim Vincent
CFIG
N483SZ