500 foot rule and pilot opinion poll

Someone, please enlighten me!

What is the difference between a 2+30 task call plus 15 min, and a 2+45 task
call?
I understand that it is scoring suicide to arrive early in either case, and
that, given consistent flying conditions, it is best to arrive 'on time'. So
why not just call a 2+45 task? Or call a 2+30 task if that is what the day
warrants.

I do like the finish ring idea if there is a 'lead-in' sector for mixed
tasks (i.e. --assigned task for 15 m and MAT for Sports). gives time for an
orderly procession of landings at the airport. I think the high speed finish
is spectacular and fun, but I am more afraid of a 'last-second' landout then
a loss of a few points.

Hartley Falbaum

"Tim Hanke" wrote in message
m...
(John Cochrane) wrote in message
. com...
Fellow US pilots:

This year's SRA pilot poll will be on line in a few days. It contains
a question on the 500 foot rule. I urge you to read it, think about
it, and vote. In particular, this is a rule that benefits newer, less
experienced pilots. It doesn't matter much to the top 5 national and
world group, many of whom hate the idea. If you like this idea for
your contests, you have to voice your opinion.

Here is the proposal: before the finish, you have to be above 500 feet
AGL in a donut from 2 miles out to one mile out. If you don't make
this altitude limit, you will be scored for distance points when you
land at the airport. When the actual finish is a line, you may then
dive down and cross the line at the usual altitude.
John Cochrane (BB)

Why are we constantly adding more rules to competition flying? It is
becoming more and more complicated. We cannot just add more and more
rules to deal with people's decision making all the time. Soaring is a
sport that requires decision-making and that is one of the big
challenges to the sport. I am opposed to more and more rules that
continue to add to the complexity of the sport.

Tim Hanke
Libelle 201B "H1"
Saratoga Springs, New York

Sorry John, I don't like it. It is my job as the pilot in command to
not jeopardize my safety or the safety of people and things on the
ground (or in the air, for that matter). Just because I'm final
gliding in a race does not excuse me from that responsibility.

And anyone who doesn't fly that way is going to ignore any "safety"
rule, anyway. I can just see the stall/spin accidents at the finish
line/cylinder/gate as Joe Bagadonuts in his still-fully-ballasted
(forgot to dump, of course) DGLSASW-69 desperately pulls up to get
over the 500' penalty wall, and finds out what it looks like to be
pointing straight down at 400 ft and 40 knots. Yee Haa - that'll have
em cheering in the cheap seats!

As an individual, if you are convinced by John's arguments, then by
all means use his guidelines for finishing - it probably won't hurt
your score one little bit, and might even help.

But a rule is not the answer to stupidity.

BTW, a Garmin GPS 3 Pilot can be setup to take you to exactly 501 ft 1
mile from the finish, or whatever point in space you want, around
multiple turnpoints - with an "ILS glideslipe" display to guide you
all the way. Do you really want to be staring at a display at that
point in the flight? Not me!

Lets go back to long and relatively low start gates, small turn
cylinders, and geographically significant finish gates.

In an AST, of course.

Kirk Stant
66

"JJ Sinclair" wrote in message
...
MM wrote Could someone who believes that
this
stragegy has a rational basis please explain it here?

MM,
The 15 minute rule adds 15 minutes to all competitors times. Compare two
flights where pilot A finishes at the minimum time and pilot B finishes 15
minutes later. Lets say both pilots have the same speed (distance flown
devided
by their time) now add 15 minutes to each pilots time. You will see that
adding
15 minutes to the pilot that already flew over by 15 minutes will be hurt
LESS
than the pilot who finished right on time. The pilot who flew about 15
minutes
over will get about 10 to 12 more points with the new system. One other
troubling little problem is, when the speeds are close, the SLOWER pilot
can
get more points. See Region 11, south, Avenal, day 1, Open, JJ gete 1000
points
for flying 51.72 and Ed Salkeld gets 999 points for flying 52.11. Same
thing on
day 3 and day 4. Anomalies like this undermine confidence in the scoring
system.

This tweaking of the scoring system hasn't achieved the stated purpose of
giving the guy without a fancy new computer a better chance, because
everybody
just flies about 15 minutes over when possible. Note, the time spent
flying
over the minimum time must be spent productively, i.e. making more miles.
JJ Sinclair

Okay, so then why not fly 30 minutes over the minimun time and so get an
"hurt" even less. Why would someone think that flying 15 minutes over the
minimum time was the ideal way to respond to the 15 minute rule?

Why are we constantly adding more rules to competition flying? It is
becoming more and more complicated. We cannot just add more and more
rules to deal with people's decision making all the time. Soaring is a
sport that requires decision-making and that is one of the big
challenges to the sport. I am opposed to more and more rules that
continue to add to the complexity of the sport.

Tim Hanke
Libelle 201B "H1"
Saratoga Springs, New York


Tim, you have said it all. Moffett said that you need to make a decision every
fifteen seconds, and that was without computers. Those were flight decisions,
now we must make a decision every fifteen seconds and spend the other fourteen
programming our flight computers.

Bruce Patton
96S

Ok, this rule may address one senario, but may create another one that
is just as bad or worse.


Let say I am 3 miles out a 700 feet in calm air. Since where i fly we
have a 2 mile long runway and the finish cyilnder is typically
centered on the center of the runway the end of the runway is only 2
miles away. However I just miss the 500 foot finish at 2 miles out
(or am not sure if I hit it) At that point I hit a weak thermal (Which
can happen quite often at low altitudes) I am only 400 ft, but if I
can work this thermal to gain only 100 feet it is worth the 400 point
differnence between being scored only distance as opposed to speed.
(that is if I understand the rules correctly) Now you have a glider
thermalling between 400-600 feet AGL with other gliders finishing at
the 500ft level.
I think this is a much more enticing carrot for the competitive pilot
than trying to decide wheather or not to land in a field 2 miles short
of the finish. In my senero the choice is thermal at low altitude and
risk a mid air with other finishing gliders which most experinced
pilots might be willing to try espeically for just 100 or 50 ft gain
of altitude. In the original senerio the risk is if I don't make the
airport, I may damage an aircraft landing short and be out of the
contest all together as well as for the rest of the season. I think
the current rules are acutally safer than the propose rule for this
reason, as the consequences of a bad decision are much worse.

Brian Case
CFIIG/ASEL

Earlier Mike wrote
Okay, so then why not fly 30 minutes over the minimun time and so get an
"hurt" even less. Why would someone think that flying 15 minutes over the
minimum time was the ideal way to respond to the 15 minute rule?


Mike,
The affect of John's +15 minute rule is to make a new minimum time of 3:15 (in
my example), so now it is advantageous to be as close as possible to the new
minimum time. Flying as close as you can to the minimum time will take maximum
advantage of your "free" altitude, that you had at the start gate.
JJ Sinclair

In article ,
says...
Let say I am 3 miles out a 700 feet in calm air. Since where i fly we
have a 2 mile long runway and the finish cyilnder is typically
centered on the center of the runway the end of the runway is only 2
miles away. However I just miss the 500 foot finish at 2 miles out
(or am not sure if I hit it) At that point I hit a weak thermal (Which
can happen quite often at low altitudes) I am only 400 ft, but if I
can work this thermal to gain only 100 feet it is worth the 400 point
differnence between being scored only distance as opposed to speed.
(that is if I understand the rules correctly) Now you have a glider
thermalling between 400-600 feet AGL with other gliders finishing at
the 500ft level.

As I understand the rule, it's not just a matter of popping above the
500' agl floor of the cylinder. You'd have to thermal up, go back to
the outside of the 2 mile cylinder, and fly from there to the 1 mile
cylinder while staying above 500' agl. In the the situation you
describe, would you still be likely to try that weak thermal, or would
you just go ahead and land?

--
!Replace DECIMAL.POINT in my e-mail address with just a . to reply
directly

Eric Greenwell
Richland, WA (USA)

We are all free to choose our own tactics, but I disagree with
yours.

Unless you're very good at predicting the future, the best time
to finish is exactly at MT, with or without the 15-minute rule.

Earlier, Pat wrote,
Unless you're very good at predicting the future, the best time
to finish is exactly at MT, with or without the 15-minute rule.


How can you say that, Pat? The scoring program is going to give out 10 to 12
more points to the guys that fly productively, 15 minutes over the minimum. If
I'm finding good lift and trucking along, don't you think I'm going to shoot to
be 15 minutes over the minimum time? Don't you think everybody will do the
same? Now it must be productive miles I'm logging, but I don't really know how
productive I've been until I see the score sheet, now do I?
JJ Sinclair

I said:
Unless you're very good at predicting the future,...

Then you said:
Now it must be productive miles I'm logging, but I don't really know how
productive I've been until I see the score sheet, now do I?

That's what I meant about predicting the future.

If your average speed is going up, and you can be sure that it
will continue to do so, then of course it is wise to stay out
longer.

-Pat