How Low to Spin??

Is this a troll?

Personally I can't believe a UK basic instructor is saying this publicly.
Are you still giving ab-initio lessons? Perhaps you should chant this, or
something like WULFSTALL, in the circuit and think about what each item is
and what the implications are if you don't do each one. You seem to already
know about one, but the others are so embarassing they can kill you.
Doubtless you do this appropriately during your annual club checks, but lack
of clarity of what each item reflects or the need is disturbing. Please
re-read your post, print a copy and hand carry it to your CFI at Rattlesden.

Frank Whiteley
Colorado

"Chris Reed" wrote in message
...
I quite like the "lookout" element of USTALL (though I don't actually
chant
the checklist to myself on circuit). What I use it for is a reminder that,
in addition to my normal lookout, I also need to pay attention to the
other
side of the circuit, look for aircraft on long, straight in approaches,
and
look at what's happening on the ground. This is a different mode of
lookout
to XC or local soaring, and I usually find myself muttering "lookout" at
some point to remind me of the change of mode.

But I take the point - if the pilot doesn't lookout except in response to
a
checklist, I'd like to be in a different part of the sky.

S (straps or speed?) is pretty useless on downwind, T (trim) ditto, and A
(airbrakes I think) is wierd - if you can't find them you're in trouble,
though if I flew a flapped glider or had the UC lever on the same side as
the airbrake (LS4s excepted) I'd add a mental note to check which lever I
intended to use for approach control.

U is quite clear in my mind, having landed wheels up once already, and
hoping not to do it again.

"Ian Johnston" wrote in message
news:cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-zikdWvOGpoiF@localhost...
You should see some of the downwind checklists/mnemonics in use in the
UK. They include things like "trim" - for people who wouldn't normally
think of using the trimmer, I presume - and, most bizarrely of all,
"lookout". I'm not sure that I want to share the sky with people who
need a mnemonic to remind them to look out...

On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 15:39:37 UTC, "Chris Reed"
wrote:

: This is a different mode of lookout
: to XC or local soaring, and I usually find myself muttering "lookout" at
: some point to remind me of the change of mode.

Good point. And the lookout I find useful to remember is for the bozo
making a straight in approach, so I have a good hard stare downwind
just before I turn final.

: S (straps or speed?) is pretty useless on downwind, T (trim) ditto

You illustarte perfectly one of the problems with long mnemonics (and
I have had WWULFSSTALL recommended to me. Seriously.), which is that
it becomes hard to remember what each letter stands for, and tryting
to remember is a distraction. It's not exactly a stage of the flight
with lots of time for contemplation.

: , and A
: (airbrakes I think) is wierd - if you can't find them you're in trouble,

I use it to crack 'em open and check that they work. I haven't had
them frozen closed yet, but it has happened to two different friend of
mine (comes of flying in the frozen northern wastes) and while I am
perfectly happy to sideslip to round out - cue long, lomg, thread from
American cousins differentiating between "forward slips" and "side
slips" - I'd rather discover that I need to as early as possible.

: U is quite clear in my mind, having landed wheels up once already, and
: hoping not to do it again.

I was taught to lower the wheel as soon as I decided to land, even if
that was at 12,000', so U is a check, not an action. I wonder how many
people get used to gabbling "Undercarriagefixedonthisaircraft" (as
they gabble "Flapsnotfittedonthisaircraft" during CBSIFTCB (with a few
E's thrown in if you want)) and continue to do so even when it's not
true...

Ian

On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 16:16:30 UTC, "F.L. Whiteley"
wrote:

: Personally I can't believe a UK basic instructor is saying this publicly.
: Are you still giving ab-initio lessons? Perhaps you should chant this, or
: something like WULFSTALL, in the circuit and think about what each item is
: and what the implications are if you don't do each one.

There is a lot of honest debate about how many of these are truly
necessary. For example, is your "W" for wind? If so, it should have
been checked a hell of a long time before trying to join the
"circuit". And if it has been, and the circuit planned to take account
of it, why specifically check again? Doesn't the practice of good
airmanship imply that this will be done anyway?

Similarly with T for Trim. Surely anyone who has been reasonably
trained with use the trimmer without thinking about it for any long
term change in speed? Why make it a separate item in a check list at a
time when maximum attention should be gven to lookout?

I have had experienced full cat instructors tell me that they didn't
advocate any down wind checks at all, per se, as they claimed that
every single one should be a consequence of good airmanship. I don't
go that far myself, but the only ones which is seems to me might be
seens as circuit extras are Undercarriage (check only, should be down
already), Speed, Airbrakes (in case frozen). Everything else should
have been done before or is plain bleeding obvious. Do you really,
truly, know people who wouldn't check the intended landing area unless
they had a mnemonic? If so, should they be flying? [I think I know
one, and I don't think he should be.]

Ian

PS If the F is for Flaps for the small proportion of gliders with 'em,
what about the other W for Water? Mind you, I had one instructor who
used the F for "Fag (extinguish and chuck out of DV panel)"...
--

Hi Chris
I quite like the "lookout" element of USTALL (though I don't actually chant
the checklist to myself on circuit). What I use it for is a reminder that,
in addition to my normal lookout, I also need to pay attention to the other
side of the circuit, look for aircraft on long, straight in approaches, and
look at what's happening on the ground. This is a different mode of lookout
to XC or local soaring, and I usually find myself muttering "lookout" at
some point to remind me of the change of mode.
You are right in that it should be automatic to be scanning the sky, but that is
not what I was taught the "lookout" item was for.
"Lookout" reminds you to look in different places - you are going to land, check
that the ground condition is good - runway clear, no cars/ gliders/ kids/
microlights or cows. YOu should already be looking for conflicting aerial traffic.


But I take the point - if the pilot doesn't lookout except in response to a
checklist, I'd like to be in a different part of the sky.

S (straps or speed?) is pretty useless on downwind, T (trim) ditto, and A
(airbrakes I think) is wierd - if you can't find them you're in trouble,
though if I flew a flapped glider or had the UC lever on the same side as
the airbrake (LS4s excepted) I'd add a mental note to check which lever I
intended to use for approach control.

Look at the statistics of experienced pilots damaging aircraft and themselves
because they tried to adjust their descent rate with the flaps or worse
undercarriage. Maybe the hoary old pilots with thousands of hours always know
they have their hand on the blue lever when they want to. Me- I still find it
useful to consciously think "what glider am I in, OK put your hand on the
airbrake lever, and crack them to be sure" Then I know I have my brakes sorted.

Same thing with speed and trim, just helps to think explicitly about how fast
you are landing.

U is quite clear in my mind, having landed wheels up once already, and
hoping not to do it again.

"Ian Johnston" wrote in message
news:cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-zikdWvOGpoiF@localhost...

You should see some of the downwind checklists/mnemonics in use in the
UK. They include things like "trim" - for people who wouldn't normally
think of using the trimmer, I presume - and, most bizarrely of all,
"lookout". I'm not sure that I want to share the sky with people who
need a mnemonic to remind them to look out...



The trim thing is also a safety thing, high workload tends to result in people
forgetting things like trim. Flying the circuit with some residual pressure on
the stick can have interesting effects when you get distracted. Tends to happen
after a long fast final glide - to me at any rate. More to the point what speed
are you trimming for - are you sure it is right.

It's a good discipline to use the checklist - much more important to understand
why each item is there. If all you are doing is going "lookout - check I am
looking out" you are wasting your time with the checklist.

No personal slight intended, but as a general comment I have found that if I
find there is a generally accepted practice in flying that one can't see the
value of, it is important to find out why it has become generally accepted
practice. Most glider pilots are not fools. (well with the possible exception of
irrational desire for more span) Generally I have found good reasons for most of
the habits and standards, even if they are not always entirely obvious. Ricardo
Semler claims you should always ask Why? three times at least. Works for me.

Bruce

Ian Johnston wrote:

: , and A
: (airbrakes I think) is wierd - if you can't find them you're in trouble,

I use it to crack 'em open and check that they work. I haven't had
them frozen closed yet, but it has happened to two different friend of
mine (comes of flying in the frozen northern wastes)

I've also had them frozen shut, but another reason for checking them is
to activate the gear warning if the gear isn't down and locked. That has
warned me at least 3 times.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 19:00:35 UTC, Bruce Greeff
wrote:

: It's a good discipline to use the checklist - much more important to understand
: why each item is there. If all you are doing is going "lookout - check I am
: looking out" you are wasting your time with the checklist.
:
: No personal slight intended, but as a general comment I have found that if I
: find there is a generally accepted practice in flying that one can't see the
: value of, it is important to find out why it has become generally accepted
: practice.

A good point. The difficulty comes from an inherent contradiction: if
safety comes from considering your (ie one's) actions fully, surely
accepting somebody else's checklist is quite the opposite? Not to
mention the problem that - in the UK anyway - there is no genrally
accepted practice. There are lots of different versions of the
downwind check list - which should one use? Should it always be the
longest possible?

Personally, I think the best idea is to work out a personal check
list, where each item appears as a result of thought and decision.
And, of course, discussion with other pilots and instructors,
intelligent reading of accident reports and so on.

I use USTAL. U(ndercarriage) is there because I normally fly wooden
gliders, and it reminds me to think about whether there is a skid
there to use in extremis. It's a good time to rethink my target
S(peed). T(rim) is pointless, I reckon, but I can't forget it, damn
it. A(irbrakes) might freeze shut and L(anding area) is my cue to make
sure that I have Plans A, B and C clear in my mind.

I don't waste time reminding myself that I don't have F(laps) or
W(ater), and I've thought about (W)ind long, long before. And I don't
mutter L(ookout) to myself because it might distract me from the
important business of looking out.

Ian

PS And why on earth do we, before launch, check the controls before
making sure that we're within the weight limits for the glider?

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
...
Ian Johnston wrote:

I've also had them frozen shut, but another reason for checking them is
to activate the gear warning if the gear isn't down and locked. That has
warned me at least 3 times.

Damn good point! Also, it allows you to check that your hand is on the
right handle (think Blanik) and also, there is a tiny possibility of assemetric
spoiler deployment (have seen it once), something best delt with at altitude.

Vaughn

"Ian Johnston" wrote in message
news:cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-V8pRq3LwYqPX@localhost...


Similarly with T for Trim. Surely anyone who has been reasonably
trained with use the trimmer without thinking about it for any long
term change in speed? Why make it a separate item in a check list at a
time when maximum attention should be gven to lookout?


Ian

PS If the F is for Flaps for the small proportion of gliders with 'em,
what about the other W for Water? Mind you, I had one instructor who
used the F for "Fag (extinguish and chuck out of DV panel)"...
--


I tend to set trim a bit nose heavy for the landing pattern. That way if my
attention is diverted from airspeed control for a second of two, at least
the glider will want to increase airspeed on its own. That's a different
use of trim than the usual trimming for the exact airspeed.

The way I think some pilots may get into trouble is if the trim is set for
thermalling while scratching for that last thermal but then they give up and
turn in to land, and forget to re-trim, that leaves the glider trimmed a bit
nose up for the normal pattern speed. If their attention is diverted, the
airspeed may drop toward stall.

Bill Daniels

At 05:42 04 September 2004, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Nyal Williams wrote:
At 18:24 01 September 2004, Chris Ocallaghan wrote:

I'd always assumed there were two factors in choosing
a pattern speed.
First, safety, thus the +5 for turbulence. The other
was to place the
glider at best speed to fly. That way if you have to
put the spoilers
away, you are guaranteed to cover the maximum distance.
If I recall,
the simple formula for best speed was best l/d speed
plus 1/2 the
headwind. Don't recall the second ever being explained
though. Just
seemed to fit.


It appears that if you draw a tangent to your glider's
polar beginning, not at zero, but at any given headwind
speed, the line will touch the polar at a point that
is best L/D plus half that headwind.

I was under the impression it was added to give you
a margin for gusts
and turbulence, which are usually less than the average
wind speed. The
'half' was likely chosen empirically, as something
that was adequate
almost all the time.

--
Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly

Eric,

Chris already accounted for the safety factor (gusts
and turbulence) with his statement about plus 5 knots.
His second factor was best speed to fly if you have
to close spoilers and need the guaranteed best speed
to fly for maximum distance.

My answer was to that part of his statement. One might
add another 5 knots for the gusts, etc., if desired.

The current BGA instuctors manual does not recommend
the use of 'downwind checks' or the use of a mnemonic
for pre landing checks. As soon as a pilot decides
to land the glider should be configured for landing.
With the exception of the RAFGSA, who you would think
would know better, (RAF pilots are restricted in the
number of touch and goes they can do because of the
danger of automatic response to checks) this is what
should be taught.
The big problem with 'challenge and response' checklists
where the challenge is chanted automatically is that
the response tends to become automatic too. Given that
most two seat traning gliders in the uk have a fixed
undercarriage, do not carry water and have no flaps
large numbers of students happily chant Water - not
carried, Undercarriage - fixed, Loose articles - stowed
Flaps - not fitted. This is fine until they fly a glider
which carries water, is fitted with a retractable undercarriage
and has flaps. In moments of stress, when it is all
going wrong they can revert to their early days when
they did not have these extras. Personally I would
rather rely on good airmanship to configure the glider
correctly for the phase of flight intended, and teach
that than rely on a chant which can become automatically
wrong.

WULF checks as they were are out. Some bright wag once
told me that they were W Wheel down and locked, Undercariage
- down, Landing gear - extended and Firestones - out
of the bay. :-)

At 16:36 04 September 2004, F.L. Whiteley wrote:
Is this a troll?

Personally I can't believe a UK basic instructor is
saying this publicly.
Are you still giving ab-initio lessons? Perhaps you
should chant this, or
something like WULFSTALL, in the circuit and think
about what each item is
and what the implications are if you don't do each
one. You seem to already
know about one, but the others are so embarassing they
can kill you.
Doubtless you do this appropriately during your annual
club checks, but lack
of clarity of what each item reflects or the need is
disturbing. Please
re-read your post, print a copy and hand carry it to
your CFI at Rattlesden.

Frank Whiteley
Colorado

'Chris Reed' wrote in message
...
I quite like the 'lookout' element of USTALL (though
I don't actually
chant
the checklist to myself on circuit). What I use it
for is a reminder that,
in addition to my normal lookout, I also need to pay
attention to the
other
side of the circuit, look for aircraft on long, straight
in approaches,
and
look at what's happening on the ground. This is a
different mode of
lookout
to XC or local soaring, and I usually find myself
muttering 'lookout' at
some point to remind me of the change of mode.

But I take the point - if the pilot doesn't lookout
except in response to
a
checklist, I'd like to be in a different part of the
sky.

S (straps or speed?) is pretty useless on downwind,
T (trim) ditto, and A
(airbrakes I think) is wierd - if you can't find them
you're in trouble,
though if I flew a flapped glider or had the UC lever
on the same side as
the airbrake (LS4s excepted) I'd add a mental note
to check which lever I
intended to use for approach control.

U is quite clear in my mind, having landed wheels
up once already, and
hoping not to do it again.

'Ian Johnston' wrote in message
news:cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-zikdWvOGpoiF@localhost...
You should see some of the downwind checklists/mnemonics
in use in the
UK. They include things like 'trim' - for people
who wouldn't normally
think of using the trimmer, I presume - and, most
bizarrely of all,
'lookout'. I'm not sure that I want to share the
sky with people who
need a mnemonic to remind them to look out...