How Low to Spin??

On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 22:39:48 GMT, "Vaughn"
wrote:


I've also had them frozen shut, but another reason for checking them is
to activate the gear warning if the gear isn't down and locked. That has
warned me at least 3 times.

Damn good point! Also, it allows you to check that your hand is on the
right handle (think Blanik)

Very good point!

Think ASW-27 - we had a very experienced pilot land my club's 27 this
weekend with the flap lever only. Touched down at the end of the 2.000
ft runway and used up the (inofficial) 500 ft overrun before he was
barely able to stop it by dropping a wing and doing a quick 110
degrees turn a couple of feet in front of a vineyard.

He never even wondered why his "airbrake" lever didn't have the
slightest braking action.

Second time this has ahappened at my home airfield - the last time was
ten years agon in an ASW-20.



Bye
Andreas

Nyal Williams wrote:


It appears that if you draw a tangent to your glider's
polar beginning, not at zero, but at any given headwind
speed, the line will touch the polar at a point that
is best L/D plus half that headwind.

I was under the impression it was added to give you
a margin for gusts
and turbulence, which are usually less than the average
wind speed. The
'half' was likely chosen empirically, as something
that was adequate
almost all the time.

--
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Eric,

Chris already accounted for the safety factor (gusts
and turbulence) with his statement about plus 5 knots.

Unfortunately, +5 knots is not very good insurance against gusts and
turbulence, which typically increase with wind speed. Or was this
supposed to be added on top of the "1/2 the wind speed"? If so, I
suggest the +5 knots is redundant in general (specific sites [hill
sites, for example] may require much higher speeds, of course).

His second factor was best speed to fly if you have
to close spoilers and need the guaranteed best speed
to fly for maximum distance.

I doubt it was chosen this way, though the correspondence with the best
L/D in wind is appealing. Since we routinely fly final approach at well
above best L/D glide slope (typically, the moderately steep glide slope
that is achieved with half spoilers), having "best L/D speed" available
when the spoilers are closed doesn't seem like a good way to pick
approach speed.

I believe, but have no direct evidence for it, that it was chosen
empirically: over many years, people that used that value had it work
out well, so it became the recommendation. I suspect the origin is now
shrouded in the fog of history.


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Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Andreas Maurer wrote:

On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 22:39:48 GMT, "Vaughn"
wrote:



I've also had them frozen shut, but another reason for checking them is
to activate the gear warning if the gear isn't down and locked. That has
warned me at least 3 times.

Damn good point! Also, it allows you to check that your hand is on the
right handle (think Blanik)


Very good point!

Think ASW-27 - we had a very experienced pilot land my club's 27 this
weekend with the flap lever only. Touched down at the end of the 2.000
ft runway and used up the (inofficial) 500 ft overrun before he was
barely able to stop it by dropping a wing and doing a quick 110
degrees turn a couple of feet in front of a vineyard.

He never even wondered why his "airbrake" lever didn't have the
slightest braking action.

Second time this has ahappened at my home airfield - the last time was
ten years agon in an ASW-20.

I've had several people recommend having a look at the wing when you
open the airbrakes, to see if they actually appear! I did this while
training students in our Blanik (the flap and airbrakes handles are very
close), but it is good advice for any glider. It is also good advice if
the glider does not seem to be climbing well (on tow or under power)
and, as Andreas mentions, when it is not coming down well!

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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 23:06:53 UTC, Don Johnstone
wrote:

: The big problem with 'challenge and response' checklists
: where the challenge is chanted automatically is that
: the response tends to become automatic too.

I agree completely.

I think there is also a problem in confusion between lists of checks
and lists of actions. In other words, don't put the undercarriage down
at "U", check that it is down. Is "S" the time to increase speed to
the approach speed, or to remember what approach speed is? If the
latter, how does that help if, because of the conditions, approach
speed should have been established previously? If the former, the
converse?

Ian
--

On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 06:35:38 UTC, "F.L. Whiteley"
wrote:

: USTALL is brilliant, simply
: because of the implication. You stall, you die. Should focus one's
: thoughts. When it was in wide use, I watched one UK instructor leave
: 3000UKP of glass and gel on the tarmac.

Doesn't that prove that it doesn't work?

Ian
--

Frank,

Not a troll. There's no BGA-mandated checklist for pre-landing checks, as
far as I know (this kind of thing changes regularly), and in any event as a
basic instructor I'm not permitted to let the student fly below 500 feet or
to teach this stuff, so what I wrote was about my own flying practices.
Certainly, in my pre-solo training (following the then BGA manual) in 1996/7
I wan't taught pre-landing checks.

What I was trying to respond to was the suggestion that consciously checking
Lookout is useless because we should all lookout in any event - I think this
*is* a useful reminder, as it's helpful to recognise the change in lookout
mode.

I believe I have the current BGA position right (though I don't speak for
the BGA in any way!) as follows: landing checklists are potentially
problematic because on training aircraft some parts don't apply - thus, e.g.
learning to say "Undercarriage - fixed" can cement the idea in a student's
mind that there is no need for action, so when moving to retractable
undercarriage they don't lower it. Instead, instructors teach the
appropriate elements which would form a checklist so that they become
entrenched as part of the routine for landing rather than items to be ticked
off on a mental checklist. Water and Flaps carry the same penalty.

(For what it's worth, I understand my wheels-up landing met all the common
criteria - 10th flight on retractable, so I'm just becoming comfortable with
it and not consciously thinking about the differences from previous
aircraft; high workload (trying to scratch away from a winch launch); and
distractions (other aircraft in the circuit and the launch point in an
unfamiliar place). Result - reversion to primary training which, of course,
was on fixed wheel aircraft).

In terms of my own flying (whether with students or solo) the thought
processes go roughly as follows:

W - not considered, as I currently fly nothing which carries water ballast.

U - do I have retractable undercarriage, and if so is it down? This is a
conscious element of my preparation for landing.

F - as for W

S - straps (though I always have to think, if someone asks me what WUFSTALL
means, whether this is not speed - thus in my mind it's a bad acronym
because it's not unique, and different from HASSL for stall/spin manoeuvres
because even if you can't remember which S is straps, one of them has to
be). I check these regularly throughout the flight, so this is an entrenched
item and not one requiring a conscious check

T - as above, I trim for every airspeed change, so this is entrenched
behaviour. I also don't like the way this substitutes for thinking about my
approach speed, as I could instead trim for my current speed. So my
conscious thought here is "What approach speed", which requires me to check
wind direction (not in checks), wind shear/gradient (not in checks), need
for a speed reserve if I might need to land long (aircraft fails to clear
the runway, not in checks) etc. etc.

A - airbrakes need checking if they might have frozen shut, but not
otherwise so far as I can see. Not confusing the airbrake lever with some
other lever is important, and I consciously check this if I'm flying an
aircraft where I could make this mistake.

LL - a conscious element because of the change of lookout mode.

There's also a whole set of other matters to think about which aren't on any
standard checklist, such as should the audio vario be turned off to avoid
distractions, is it appropriate to use my tailchute or not, would a radio
call announcing my presence be helpful, pointless or downright unhelpful (as
recently when a gaggle of competition fliers all lucked out overhead at the
same time and arrived from multiple directions) and so on.

It seems to me that the big question is whether pre-landing checks should be
taught or not. Some think yes, to deal with the pilot who isn't thinking
properly about the landing. Some think no, because the pilot must be taught
to think, rather than follow a list.

I was taught under the second philosophy, and I guess that's what became
entrenched in my approach to the issue, though if the BGA decides to
introduce teaching checklists for this, I'll learn and teach them.

The pre-launch checks (whichever version you use) are different - you
haven't started flying yet, and the brain needs to begin the switch-on
process.

"F.L. Whiteley" wrote in message
...
Is this a troll?

Personally I can't believe a UK basic instructor is saying this publicly.
Are you still giving ab-initio lessons? Perhaps you should chant this, or
something like WULFSTALL, in the circuit and think about what each item is
and what the implications are if you don't do each one. You seem to
already
know about one, but the others are so embarassing they can kill you.
Doubtless you do this appropriately during your annual club checks, but
lack
of clarity of what each item reflects or the need is disturbing. Please
re-read your post, print a copy and hand carry it to your CFI at
Rattlesden.

Frank Whiteley
Colorado

"Chris Reed" wrote in message
...
I quite like the "lookout" element of USTALL (though I don't actually
chant
the checklist to myself on circuit). What I use it for is a reminder
that,
in addition to my normal lookout, I also need to pay attention to the
other
side of the circuit, look for aircraft on long, straight in approaches,
and
look at what's happening on the ground. This is a different mode of
lookout
to XC or local soaring, and I usually find myself muttering "lookout" at
some point to remind me of the change of mode.

But I take the point - if the pilot doesn't lookout except in response
to
a
checklist, I'd like to be in a different part of the sky.

S (straps or speed?) is pretty useless on downwind, T (trim) ditto, and
A
(airbrakes I think) is wierd - if you can't find them you're in trouble,
though if I flew a flapped glider or had the UC lever on the same side
as
the airbrake (LS4s excepted) I'd add a mental note to check which lever
I
intended to use for approach control.

U is quite clear in my mind, having landed wheels up once already, and
hoping not to do it again.

"Ian Johnston" wrote in message
news:cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-zikdWvOGpoiF@localhost...
You should see some of the downwind checklists/mnemonics in use in the
UK. They include things like "trim" - for people who wouldn't normally
think of using the trimmer, I presume - and, most bizarrely of all,
"lookout". I'm not sure that I want to share the sky with people who
need a mnemonic to remind them to look out...

Thanks for your reply.

S-Speed, appropriate for conditions and glider. Never heard it used for
straps. OBTW, was member over time of four UK clubs, two civil, two RAF,
plus flew irregularly at 9-10 others, last in 1995. Thinking back, hadn't
flown with anyone that had become instructor since sometime in the '80's.

Regards,

Frank

"Chris Reed" wrote in message
...
Frank,

Not a troll. There's no BGA-mandated checklist for pre-landing checks, as
far as I know (this kind of thing changes regularly), and in any event as
a
basic instructor I'm not permitted to let the student fly below 500 feet
or
to teach this stuff, so what I wrote was about my own flying practices.
Certainly, in my pre-solo training (following the then BGA manual) in
1996/7
I wan't taught pre-landing checks.

What I was trying to respond to was the suggestion that consciously
checking
Lookout is useless because we should all lookout in any event - I think
this
*is* a useful reminder, as it's helpful to recognise the change in lookout
mode.

I believe I have the current BGA position right (though I don't speak for
the BGA in any way!) as follows: landing checklists are potentially
problematic because on training aircraft some parts don't apply - thus,
e.g.
learning to say "Undercarriage - fixed" can cement the idea in a student's
mind that there is no need for action, so when moving to retractable
undercarriage they don't lower it. Instead, instructors teach the
appropriate elements which would form a checklist so that they become
entrenched as part of the routine for landing rather than items to be
ticked
off on a mental checklist. Water and Flaps carry the same penalty.

(For what it's worth, I understand my wheels-up landing met all the common
criteria - 10th flight on retractable, so I'm just becoming comfortable
with
it and not consciously thinking about the differences from previous
aircraft; high workload (trying to scratch away from a winch launch); and
distractions (other aircraft in the circuit and the launch point in an
unfamiliar place). Result - reversion to primary training which, of
course,
was on fixed wheel aircraft).

In terms of my own flying (whether with students or solo) the thought
processes go roughly as follows:

W - not considered, as I currently fly nothing which carries water
ballast.

U - do I have retractable undercarriage, and if so is it down? This is a
conscious element of my preparation for landing.

F - as for W

S - straps (though I always have to think, if someone asks me what
WUFSTALL
means, whether this is not speed - thus in my mind it's a bad acronym
because it's not unique, and different from HASSL for stall/spin
manoeuvres
because even if you can't remember which S is straps, one of them has to
be). I check these regularly throughout the flight, so this is an
entrenched
item and not one requiring a conscious check

T - as above, I trim for every airspeed change, so this is entrenched
behaviour. I also don't like the way this substitutes for thinking about
my
approach speed, as I could instead trim for my current speed. So my
conscious thought here is "What approach speed", which requires me to
check
wind direction (not in checks), wind shear/gradient (not in checks), need
for a speed reserve if I might need to land long (aircraft fails to clear
the runway, not in checks) etc. etc.

A - airbrakes need checking if they might have frozen shut, but not
otherwise so far as I can see. Not confusing the airbrake lever with some
other lever is important, and I consciously check this if I'm flying an
aircraft where I could make this mistake.

LL - a conscious element because of the change of lookout mode.

There's also a whole set of other matters to think about which aren't on
any
standard checklist, such as should the audio vario be turned off to avoid
distractions, is it appropriate to use my tailchute or not, would a radio
call announcing my presence be helpful, pointless or downright unhelpful
(as
recently when a gaggle of competition fliers all lucked out overhead at
the
same time and arrived from multiple directions) and so on.

It seems to me that the big question is whether pre-landing checks should
be
taught or not. Some think yes, to deal with the pilot who isn't thinking
properly about the landing. Some think no, because the pilot must be
taught
to think, rather than follow a list.

I was taught under the second philosophy, and I guess that's what became
entrenched in my approach to the issue, though if the BGA decides to
introduce teaching checklists for this, I'll learn and teach them.

The pre-launch checks (whichever version you use) are different - you
haven't started flying yet, and the brain needs to begin the switch-on
process.

"F.L. Whiteley" wrote in message
...
Is this a troll?

Personally I can't believe a UK basic instructor is saying this
publicly.
Are you still giving ab-initio lessons? Perhaps you should chant this,
or
something like WULFSTALL, in the circuit and think about what each item
is
and what the implications are if you don't do each one. You seem to
already
know about one, but the others are so embarassing they can kill you.
Doubtless you do this appropriately during your annual club checks, but
lack
of clarity of what each item reflects or the need is disturbing. Please
re-read your post, print a copy and hand carry it to your CFI at
Rattlesden.

Frank Whiteley
Colorado

"Chris Reed" wrote in message
...
I quite like the "lookout" element of USTALL (though I don't actually
chant
the checklist to myself on circuit). What I use it for is a reminder
that,
in addition to my normal lookout, I also need to pay attention to the
other
side of the circuit, look for aircraft on long, straight in
approaches,
and
look at what's happening on the ground. This is a different mode of
lookout
to XC or local soaring, and I usually find myself muttering "lookout"
at
some point to remind me of the change of mode.

But I take the point - if the pilot doesn't lookout except in response
to
a
checklist, I'd like to be in a different part of the sky.

S (straps or speed?) is pretty useless on downwind, T (trim) ditto,
and
A
(airbrakes I think) is wierd - if you can't find them you're in
trouble,
though if I flew a flapped glider or had the UC lever on the same side
as
the airbrake (LS4s excepted) I'd add a mental note to check which
lever
I
intended to use for approach control.

U is quite clear in my mind, having landed wheels up once already, and
hoping not to do it again.

"Ian Johnston" wrote in
message
news:cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-zikdWvOGpoiF@localhost...
You should see some of the downwind checklists/mnemonics in use in
the
UK. They include things like "trim" - for people who wouldn't
normally
think of using the trimmer, I presume - and, most bizarrely of all,
"lookout". I'm not sure that I want to share the sky with people who
need a mnemonic to remind them to look out...

All it proved was that he didn't practice what he preached. He admitted to
not having done the checks. He was responsible for at least three other
damage incidents to club aircraft and left instructing for other reasons,
but continued to fly on his own. He was not a thinking pilot.

Frank

"Ian Johnston" wrote in message
news:cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-GI8xdrNCsnVF@localhost...
On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 06:35:38 UTC, "F.L. Whiteley"
wrote:

: USTALL is brilliant, simply
: because of the implication. You stall, you die. Should focus one's
: thoughts. When it was in wide use, I watched one UK instructor leave
: 3000UKP of glass and gel on the tarmac.

Doesn't that prove that it doesn't work?

Ian
--

I've been following this thread with mild interest. It seems to show up
that check lists, while useful, can be misused.

I try to make the distinction between "Check" lists and "Do" lists. If the
list is used as a reminder to do things, it is a "Do" list. This is using
the list as a memory crutch.

If a list is used to check that important things have already been done, it
is a "Check" list. I emphasize that the pre-takeoff and pre-landing tasks
should be done from memory and then checked against the list.

I think this is better in at least two ways. First, the list is done twice,
once from memory and once from the list. Second, in a rushed situation, the
critical tasks can be done from memory with a greater chance of success
since this is the established habit.

For example: BUFSTALL (In downwind)

Ballast: Dump started 7 minutes ago, valve in open position, water should be
gone by now.
Undercarriage: Visually check handle is securely in the down position where
I put it a minute ago.
Flaps: Visually check, securely in landing position where they have been
since pattern entry.
Speed: Still correct for wind and turbulence.
Trim: Still set.
Airbrakes: Visually check, left hand still on correct handle since testing.
Look: Surrounding airspace and landing area are still clear of conflicting
traffic - select aim point.
Landing: Mentally review, touchdown attitude, flaps to negative after
touchdown, stick back to make tailwheel heavy, brake smoothly.

Used in this manner, the BUFSTALL checklist can be done in just a few
seconds.

Bill Daniels

On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 14:25:01 UTC, "F.L. Whiteley"
wrote:

: S-Speed, appropriate for conditions and glider. Never heard it used for
: straps.

I think the longest downwind checklist I have had recommeneded was
WWULFSSTALL:

Wind, Water, Undercarriage, L (can't remember what this was), Flaps,
Straps, Speed, Trim, Airbrake, Landing area, Lookout.

It required a 2000' entry to the circuit just to get the damn thing
completed.

Ian

--