Spins

An airplane that is spun
regularly will definitely go through some gyros unless they're designed
for it.

Bertie-

And you know I once wondered why my instructor had so many old gyros
sitting around on her bookshelves. There were like four or five of
them, just sitting there. And three months ago I found it racked in
the Aerobat needing repairs. I never asked ...

Heh.

Ron Wanttaja wrote in
:

On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 03:54:53 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

wrote in news:6d564a7c-8f92-45c2-baae-
:

Does anyone know why the FAA ****e-canned the spin recovery
demonstration requirement in the PTS? Was it fear of litigation
(since a spin might lead to a crash, after all)?

No, it was because the figured they were losing more in spin training
than they were in accidental spins.

IIRC, Canada still requires spin training, but the US and Canadian
accident rate due to spins is about the same. They might have fewer
accidental spins, but the accidents during training make up for it,
like Bertie says.

Nowadays, though, you almost never hear of someone getting into an
accidental spin at 3,000 feet and spinning all the way to the ground.
Most spin accidents occur in the traffic pattern, especially the
base-to-final turn. Often, recovery isn't possible. Hence, the FAA
emphasizes how to AVOID spins, instead of recovering from them.

I got into an accidental spin the first time I carried a passenger
after I got my Private. I had had an hours' worth of spin/acrobatic
training months earlier. But what still impresses me today, nearly
forty years later, is how quickly that Citabria *bit* when it was
mishandled. The spins I had performed during training were all
pull-the-power-off, nose up, gradually slow, kick the rudder when it
stalls, and watch the nose majestically drop down and start rotating.

This spin entry was different. There I was, about a seventy-degree
left bank, pulling hard on the stick to impress my buddy in the back
seat, and WHAM. Ol' N1660G snapped to the right, went inverted, and
tucked into a whirling dervish of an upright spin.

Stick forward, opposite rudder, haul back on the stick, feel my back
soak instantly with sweat, and hear my buddy ask in a shaky voice if I
really, TRULY knew what I was doing....

The really scary thing? I routinely had been performing that same
manuever...IN THE TRAFFIC PATTERN. The difference was a further-aft
CG and perhaps a slightly more-enthusiastic pull.

I quit doing that....


Good idea!

I do remember the Citabria spinning relatively easily, but nothing
untoward. It was entirely predictable once you knew what made it tick.
They have an unhealthy spin accident history compared to modern
airplanes, of course. An awful lot of realtively easily spinnable
airplanes do end up spinning in accidentally. No good reason for it
except the pilots simply cnnot be proficient in them.
One thing worth mentioning regarding spins is that an awful lot occur
during engine failures and the pilot forgets rule number one. Aviate.
They start messing around looking for cab heat or fuel selectos and
don't pay enough attention to the attitude. Better to fly into a barn
than to allow the airplane to spin in.

Bertie

One thing worth mentioning regarding spins is that an awful lot occur
during engine failures and the pilot forgets rule number one. Aviate.
They start messing around looking for cab heat or fuel selectos and
don't pay enough attention to the attitude. Better to fly into a barn
than to allow the airplane to spin in.

Bertie-

I think that's right.

On my last flight, with an instructor during a checkout, conversation
with him made me drift all over the place course wise. Alone I'm
always dead on. Same with altitude.

Real slop. I guess that's one of the next rungs up: be able to nail
that kind of thing while holding a conversation.

Of course you're talking about something different. Have you ever had
to put down with no power, by the way?

wrote in
:

This spin entry was different. *There I was, about a seventy-degree
left
bank,
pulling hard on the stick to impress my buddy in the back seat, and
WHAM.
*Ol'
N1660G snapped to the right, went inverted, and tucked into a
whirling der
vish
of an upright spin. *

Yikes.

Okay. Do you think you'd have saved your skins if you had not taken it
upon yourself to get the extra spin training? What if you'd never
recovered from a spin before?

I admit that the prospect of death wonderfully concentrates the mind.
Still, practice makes better. No practice, well ...



But if you have no idea what is going on your chances are next to zilch.

The typicl spin accident, if there is such a thing, is the famous
overcooked turn onto final. You're at 400 feet or so, you're looking at
the end of the runway, let the speed bleed off a bit and you bank too
much and pull too hard whilst simultaneously trying to rudder it into
line with the runway. Next thig is a wing drops and the nose with it.
"What caused that?" you think. Now the airplane might not be rotating
much and your mind is now turned to a reptilian wire of instinct. You
aren't going to mentally turn to page 179 in Kershner and remember the
procedure for recovery because the verbal and logical part of your brain
is too busy screaming OH ****!. No, the reptilian part, the one you
wired with training, is the part that is going to save your bacon. Thing
is, you have to have wired it in the first place.. That is what all
training is for...

Oh and sorry, I know you were asking Ron, but I was on a roll!

Bertie

wrote in news:f9312263-47db-4463-99d6-
:

An airplane that is spun
regularly will definitely go through some gyros unless they're designed
for it.

Bertie-

And you know I once wondered why my instructor had so many old gyros
sitting around on her bookshelves. There were like four or five of
them, just sitting there. And three months ago I found it racked in
the Aerobat needing repairs. I never asked ...

Well, the Aerobat should have a cageable gyro. I've got very little time in
them and I can't remember if it did or not, but it must have had.
I've wrecked many a gyro though!


Bertie

wrote in news:f978f345-d4d6-47ba-8e2f-abe016c2b8e8
@i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com:

One thing worth mentioning regarding spins is that an awful lot occur
during engine failures and the pilot forgets rule number one. Aviate.
They start messing around looking for cab heat or fuel selectos and
don't pay enough attention to the attitude. Better to fly into a barn
than to allow the airplane to spin in.

Bertie-

I think that's right.

On my last flight, with an instructor during a checkout, conversation
with him made me drift all over the place course wise. Alone I'm
always dead on. Same with altitude.

Real slop. I guess that's one of the next rungs up: be able to nail
that kind of thing while holding a conversation.

Of course you're talking about something different. Have you ever had
to put down with no power, by the way?



Only about 700 times!

696 were kind of expected to go that way, though.

and tow of the remaing four were also kind of expected since we ran out of
gas!
Not bragging about that BTW.


Bertie

On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 06:09:12 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

Ron Wanttaja wrote in
:

On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 03:54:53 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

wrote in news:6d564a7c-8f92-45c2-baae-
:

Does anyone know why the FAA ****e-canned the spin recovery
demonstration requirement in the PTS? Was it fear of litigation
(since a spin might lead to a crash, after all)?

No, it was because the figured they were losing more in spin training
than they were in accidental spins.

IIRC, Canada still requires spin training, but the US and Canadian
accident rate due to spins is about the same. They might have fewer
accidental spins, but the accidents during training make up for it,
like Bertie says.

Nowadays, though, you almost never hear of someone getting into an
accidental spin at 3,000 feet and spinning all the way to the ground.
Most spin accidents occur in the traffic pattern, especially the
base-to-final turn. Often, recovery isn't possible. Hence, the FAA
emphasizes how to AVOID spins, instead of recovering from them.

I got into an accidental spin the first time I carried a passenger
after I got my Private. I had had an hours' worth of spin/acrobatic
training months earlier. But what still impresses me today, nearly
forty years later, is how quickly that Citabria *bit* when it was
mishandled. The spins I had performed during training were all
pull-the-power-off, nose up, gradually slow, kick the rudder when it
stalls, and watch the nose majestically drop down and start rotating.

This spin entry was different. There I was, about a seventy-degree
left bank, pulling hard on the stick to impress my buddy in the back
seat, and WHAM. Ol' N1660G snapped to the right, went inverted, and
tucked into a whirling dervish of an upright spin.

Stick forward, opposite rudder, haul back on the stick, feel my back
soak instantly with sweat, and hear my buddy ask in a shaky voice if I
really, TRULY knew what I was doing....

The really scary thing? I routinely had been performing that same
manuever...IN THE TRAFFIC PATTERN. The difference was a further-aft
CG and perhaps a slightly more-enthusiastic pull.

I quit doing that....


Good idea!

I do remember the Citabria spinning relatively easily, but nothing
untoward. It was entirely predictable once you knew what made it tick.
They have an unhealthy spin accident history compared to modern
airplanes, of course. An awful lot of realtively easily spinnable
airplanes do end up spinning in accidentally. No good reason for it
except the pilots simply cnnot be proficient in them.
One thing worth mentioning regarding spins is that an awful lot occur
during engine failures and the pilot forgets rule number one. Aviate.
They start messing around looking for cab heat or fuel selectos and
don't pay enough attention to the attitude. Better to fly into a barn
than to allow the airplane to spin in.

Bertie


Bertie

Don't they say "fly it all the way to the crash site"?

Big John

Big John wrote in
:


Don't they say "fly it all the way to the crash site"

Never heard it put that way before, but yeah!


Bertie

On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 21:38:05 -0800 (PST), wrote:

This spin entry was different. *There I was, about a seventy-degree left bank,
pulling hard on the stick to impress my buddy in the back seat, and WHAM. *Ol'
N1660G snapped to the right, went inverted, and tucked into a whirling dervish
of an upright spin. *

Yikes.

Okay. Do you think you'd have saved your skins if you had not taken it
upon yourself to get the extra spin training? What if you'd never
recovered from a spin before?

Being a real aviation hound from a tender age, I think I would have figured out
what was going on and remembered the recovery process. And I think good 'ol
Sixty Golf, being a benevolent early-model Citabria, would have probably dished
out and recovered on its own, eventually. Remember, 7ECAs were produced under
the old Aeronca Champ type certificate, from the days when a plane WAS expected
to recover on its own.

But, even with the training, I think if it *had* happened in the pattern, I
would have had a very narrow chance of recovering in time. Unlike all my
practice, it was THAT violent.

As I've aged, taking BFRs has become interesting. The CFIs get younger and
younger, and some of them, well...they don't seem to understand the stuff
they're supposed to be teaching.

About ten years ago, I was taking a BFR and was asked to do a power-off stall.
I did it the way I was trained to...power off, then hold the nose pretty much
level as the plane decelerates.

Didn't wash with the instructor, though: "Come on, pull the nose up! It'll
never stall if you don't get the nose up high!"

Sheesh.

I read a great article in Flying magazine a while back, where the writer
described the process for setting oneself up for a spin entry like mine. IIRC,
it was just basically level flight at low power, in a turn with about a
half-ball skid. Takes a while, but he describes an explosive break like I
experienced.

Ron Wanttaja

Ron Wanttaja wrote in
:



As I've aged, taking BFRs has become interesting. The CFIs get
younger and younger, and some of them, well...they don't seem to
understand the stuff they're supposed to be teaching.


I agree, but to be fair, a lot of the old guys didn't know what they were
talking about either. I've met a few.
But it's true the direction has changed and not alwasys for the better.
If I hear one more guy say "but that's how the pros do it"....

Bertie