See and avoid...

Why shouldn't it be compatible? The FLARM organisation isn't against
third party devices using the FLARM-Protocol. They just want not be
accuses by US courts if somebody claim for damages.

This is the german statement from the FLARM folks:
"Die teilweise extremen Haftpflichtforderungen aus dem
nordamerikanischen Raum haben uns dazu veranlasst, entsprechende klare
Einschränkungen zu erlassen. Es obliegt dem Benützer von Flarm und dem
Kommandanten, Flarm gemäss den Betriebsbedingungen und -einschränkungen
zu verwenden. Flarm Technology kann diesbezüglich keine Ausnahmen gewähren."

Further they wrote, that the FLARM radio communication protocol is
available against a small protective charge. FLARM compatible devices
need a unique ID to work properly. This IDs will be distributed by the
FLARM folks against an adequate fee.

Andreas

Eric Greenwell schrieb:
Ramy wrote:
What prevents a US manufacture to produce a Flarm/ADS-B compatible
device, similar to what was done in Australia?

It wouldn't have to be compatible, as no one will fly their glider from
the US to Europe or Australia. The very small number of motorgliders
that might make that trip can make arrangements to buy, borrow, or rent
one when they get there. Life is simpler if you don't need the
compatibility, and might made the FLARM folks sleep better at night, too.

There is a simple matter for this. US-courts have a bad reputation in
europe, especially for imposing high damages.

The risc seems to be to high for a non-commercial organization like FLARM.

Andreas

Ramy wrote:
Too bad. Sounds like a clinical case of hyper paranoia.

Ramy

On Jan 28, 3:04 pm, "W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\)."
wrote:
The Flarm operating manual version 3.05 (Jan 8th 2007)http://www.flarm.com/support/manual/...ual_v3.05E.pdf
on page 12 of 12 states "Operation of FLARM is forbidden in the USA or
Canada or in aircraft registered in the USA or Canada."

The FOCA approved aircraft flight manual supplementhttp://www.flarm.com/support/manual/flarm_afms_v1.00_en.pdfincludes:
"Important Note:
Operation of FLARM is forbidden in aircraft in which one or more of the
occupants resides in or is a citizen of the USA or Canada. Likewise, use of
FLARM is forbidden if the aircraft concerned takes off from, makes an
intermediate or final landing in the USA or Canada"
(Swiss FOCA approved Date 14.03.06 Revision Original Page 3 of 9)

I have no idea why these restrictions are made, but I imagine that the North
American legal systems, liability laws and extradition rules have something
to do with it.

I believe that compatibility between OzFlarm and ADS-B is planned, but has
not happened yet.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.

"jcarlyle" wrote in oglegroups.com...



Andreas, FLARM is "like" ADS-B, but it isn't ADS-B (although the
Australians have apparently extended their version to work with their
official ADS-B system). One hugh drawback to FLARM is that the
designers won't permit its use in the US. This has been discussed
before on this group.
-John
On Jan 27, 7:11 pm, Andreas Alin
wrote:
Ramy wrote:
An eye opener:
http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/new....jsp?id=news/b...
It was reports such as this that contributed to the dream (of 15 or so
years ago) that a portable battery powered ADS-B unit suitable for
skydivers, gliders, ultralights etc, could be produced for under $1000.
Once the dream passed through the normal bureaucratic process ADS-B
was delayed over 20 years, will not be portable, and will cost more
than most pilots will be willing to pay.
AndyFor several years there exists an ADS-B for small aircrafts,
especially
gliders. The number of equiped gliders is skyrocketing in
europe:http://www.flarm.com/index_en.html
Andreas- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -

Remember Grob? They almost went out of business because some idiot
painted his ailerons and "it was not stated in the manual to not do
that"
I dont blame them.

Ron


On 29 jan, 04:10, "Ramy" wrote:
Too bad. Sounds like a clinical case of hyper paranoia.

Ramy

On Jan 28, 3:04 pm, "W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\)."

wrote:
The Flarm operating manual version 3.05 (Jan 8th 2007)http://www.flarm.com/support/manual/...ual_v3.05E.pdf
on page 12 of 12 states "Operation of FLARM is forbidden in the USA or
Canada or in aircraft registered in the USA or Canada."

The FOCA approved aircraft flight manual supplementhttp://www.flarm.com/support/manual/flarm_afms_v1.00_en.pdfincludes:
"Important Note:
Operation of FLARM is forbidden in aircraft in which one or more of the
occupants resides in or is a citizen of the USA or Canada. Likewise, use of
FLARM is forbidden if the aircraft concerned takes off from, makes an
intermediate or final landing in the USA or Canada"
(Swiss FOCA approved Date 14.03.06 Revision Original Page 3 of 9)

I have no idea why these restrictions are made, but I imagine that the North
American legal systems, liability laws and extradition rules have something
to do with it.

I believe that compatibility between OzFlarm and ADS-B is planned, but has
not happened yet.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.

"jcarlyle" wrote in oglegroups.com...

Andreas, FLARM is "like" ADS-B, but it isn't ADS-B (although the
Australians have apparently extended their version to work with their
official ADS-B system). One hugh drawback to FLARM is that the
designers won't permit its use in the US. This has been discussed
before on this group.

-John

On Jan 27, 7:11 pm, Andreas Alin
wrote:
Ramy wrote:
An eye opener:
http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/new....jsp?id=news/b...

It was reports such as this that contributed to the dream (of 15 or so
years ago) that a portable battery powered ADS-B unit suitable for
skydivers, gliders, ultralights etc, could be produced for under $1000.
Once the dream passed through the normal bureaucratic process ADS-B
was delayed over 20 years, will not be portable, and will cost more
than most pilots will be willing to pay.

AndyFor several years there exists an ADS-B for small aircrafts,
especially
gliders. The number of equiped gliders is skyrocketing in
europe:http://www.flarm.com/index_en.html

Andreas- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -

It's a bit of a moot point, anyway. The problem in the US (and
probably Canada, also) is not midairs with other gliders (as it is in
Germany or the Alps), but midairs with VFR lightplanes or fast
movers. FLARM would do absolutely no good unless they also carried
it, and that is not going to happen!

What we need in the US is a low-power, combination transponder (to
trigger TCAS and be seen by ATC) and transponder detector (like TPAS)
to warn of nearby VFR or military traffic that is transponder-equipped
but not talking to center.

The detector is easy - $500 for a TPAS and we are good to go. I plan
on getting mine when the season starts. But at $2K+ for a
transponder, it's be a while before they are real common, especially
in older gliders.

What I would like is an integration of TPAS with my PDA software
(SeeYou Mobile, in my case) so I can hide the hardware - one less
thing to look at inside the cockpit. I want a good loud "CHECK
TRAFFIC ONE MILE FORTY-SIX HUNDRED FEET CLOSING" to get my attention
where it belongs! We already have it for airspace and as far as I
know, no-one has ever died from running into Class B airspace!

Kirk
Ls6 "66"

"kirk.stant" wrote in message
oups.com...


The detector is easy - $500 for a TPAS and we are good to go. I plan
on getting mine when the season starts. But at $2K+ for a
transponder, it's be a while before they are real common, especially
in older gliders.
Kirk
Ls6 "66"



More and more of us are doing just that. I fly out of Minden so have been
flying with TPAS (Proxalert R-5) for over 3 years and a Becker transponder
since '98. Back when I bought the TPAS, it was over $1K, so I've over $3K in
equipment. How much is a jet load of passengers worth? Probably well over
$3K at the going attorney's rates. How much is my butt worth? Priceless!
(last time I checked).

bumper

bumper schrieb:
I fly out of Minden so have been
flying with TPAS (Proxalert R-5) for over 3 years and a Becker transponder
since '98. Back when I bought the TPAS, it was over $1K, so I've over $3K in
equipment.

How long does the accumulator last?

bumper

Ls6 "66"More and more of us are doing just that. I fly out of Minden so have been
flying with TPAS (Proxalert R-5) for over 3 years and a Becker transponder
since '98. Back when I bought the TPAS, it was over $1K, so I've over $3K in
equipment. How much is a jet load of passengers worth? Probably well over
$3K at the going attorney's rates. How much is my butt worth? Priceless!
(last time I checked).

bumper

Transponders are kinda like airbags in cars - nobody denies they are
safer, but they are not always available or easy to install...(I know,
that's a whining excuse).

What is your experience with your TPAS?

I'm curious, though - has anyone out there actually been snuck up on
by an airliner? Not a bizjet, but a no-sh*t great big hulking "250
knots below 10,000" airliner? I've seen plenty of them entering and
leaving the PHX Class B, and they were never really very hard to see.
Now lightplanes, F-16s, or Lears - they can be tough and I've been
surprised by them a few times. C'mon, fess up!

66

kirk.stant wrote:
Ls6 "66"More and more of us are doing just that. I fly out of Minden so have been
flying with TPAS (Proxalert R-5) for over 3 years and a Becker transponder
since '98. Back when I bought the TPAS, it was over $1K, so I've over $3K in
equipment. How much is a jet load of passengers worth? Probably well over
$3K at the going attorney's rates. How much is my butt worth? Priceless!
(last time I checked).

bumper

Transponders are kinda like airbags in cars - nobody denies they are
safer, but they are not always available or easy to install...(I know,
that's a whining excuse).

What is your experience with your TPAS?

I'm curious, though - has anyone out there actually been snuck up on
by an airliner? Not a bizjet, but a no-sh*t great big hulking "250
knots below 10,000" airliner?

Yes.

I haven't met one up close, but I've been close enough (1/2 mile or so).
But others I know who also fly in the Great Basin have had close
encounters that scared them into installing transponders. They seem to
occur mostly around Reno/Minden and Air Sailing.

Jeremy

My experience with TPAS is such that I wouldn't fly without it - -
especially not anywhere near cloudbase. It's true that sometimes it's
difficult to judge when one is maintaining exactly the proper required
distance from clouds. And in the unlikely case you "misjudge" and snuggle up
to the fluffy stuff a bit too close, it's comforting to know that there's
not likely anything big and made of metal that will be exiting nearby.

The transponder is equally important for this too, as all the big heavy
things have TCAS and thus will see you, or will receive an altitude hold or
vectors around you from ATC.

I'll often monitor 119.2 (Reno ATC) if I'm up that way or when high over the
Pinenuts (SE of Minden). Invariably I'll hear them point me out to other
traffic, often even before that traffic shows up on my TPAS.

bumper

"kirk.stant" wrote in message
ups.com...
Ls6 "66"More and more of us are doing just that. I fly out of Minden so
have been
flying with TPAS (Proxalert R-5) for over 3 years and a Becker
transponder
since '98. Back when I bought the TPAS, it was over $1K, so I've over $3K
in
equipment. How much is a jet load of passengers worth? Probably well
over
$3K at the going attorney's rates. How much is my butt worth? Priceless!
(last time I checked).

bumper

Transponders are kinda like airbags in cars - nobody denies they are
safer, but they are not always available or easy to install...(I know,
that's a whining excuse).

What is your experience with your TPAS?

I'm curious, though - has anyone out there actually been snuck up on
by an airliner? Not a bizjet, but a no-sh*t great big hulking "250
knots below 10,000" airliner? I've seen plenty of them entering and
leaving the PHX Class B, and they were never really very hard to see.
Now lightplanes, F-16s, or Lears - they can be tough and I've been
surprised by them a few times. C'mon, fess up!

66

Yes, Kirk, I have, here north of the PHL Class B. My PCAS (Zaon MRX)
detected it 5 miles away, but I couldn't see it until it was almost
directly overhead. It was 600 feet above me, running through a cloud
layer. I was keeping an eagle eye on the ascend/descend flag as I rode
that street, I can tell you!

-John

On Jan 30, 10:43 am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
I'm curious, though - has anyone out there actually been snuck up on
by an airliner? Not a bizjet, but a no-sh*t great big hulking "250
knots below 10,000" airliner? I've seen plenty of them entering and
leaving the PHX Class B, and they were never really very hard to see.
Now lightplanes, F-16s, or Lears - they can be tough and I've been
surprised by them a few times. C'mon, fess up!