Report Leaving Assigned Altitude?

Matthew S. Whiting wrote:
Dave Butler wrote:

Bob Gardner wrote:

"Maintain 2200 until established, cleared for the ILS." Do you report
leaving 2200 when the glideslope comes down?



Nope, I don't. The glideslope coming down is not a "newly assigned
altitude".


No, but you are leaving a previously assigned altitude which is your
original point as I recall. And the point is that once cleared for the
approach, you are also cleared to enter and leave all altitudes from
that point until you are on the runway.

My "original point" is that we should do what the AIM says with regard to
reporting leaving assigned altitudes for a newly assigned altitude. The AIM says
(paraphrasing) that you should report when leaving an assigned altitude *for a
newly assigned altitude*.

I viewed a clearance for a visual approach as a newly assigned altitude. As a
result of this discussion, I no longer hold that view. I never viewed a falling
glideslope needle as a newly assigned altitude.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

1) "N7NZ, cleared direct BMQ cruise 7000". Do I report subsequent
descents?
E.g. "leaving 7000 descending 5000"? Then later "leaving 5000 descending
2000"?

2) Its VMC and I'm IFR to Temple, level at 5000. At 25 miles out I report
Temple in sight. "N7NZ cleared visual approach to Temple, remain this
frequency til you're closer in". At this point I may descend at will,
right? When I do decide to descend, do I report leaving 5000?

3) I'm level at 7000. "N7NZ, descend 3000 pilots discretion". Do I
report
my descent? Can I level off at an intermediate altitude, and if so, do I
eventually report leaving that altitude?E.g. "leaving 7000 descending
5000"?
Then later "leaving 5000 descending 3000"?

Please read the above "do I" as "am I required to". In my (small) IFR
experience to this point I have made the reports in many/all the above
cases, so I'm now trying to confirm which of them are unnecessary...


Are you in radar contact and do you have Mode C altitude reporting
equipment? If yes to both of those, then you're already reporting.

"Greg Esres" wrote in message
...

Regardless of what the AIM says, the important question is what ATC
uses these reports for.

Controllers in the past have said that under some circumstances, they
can use the pilot's report of leaving an altitude for separation
purposes.

However, a PD descent isn't one of them. Controllers have said that
they cannot use a pilot's report of leaving an altitude on a PD
descent/climb and therefore the reportis not useful.


A pilot's report of leaving an altitude on a PD descent/climb cannot be used
to assign the altitude reported leaving, but it can be used to assign an
altitude that provides minimum vertical separation from that altitude, so it
is still useful.



(However,
according to the .65, this isn't true in a NON-radar environment.)


Where is that written?



Perhaps the visual approach and cruise clearance fall into the same
category?


They are discretionary descents.

"Richard Kaplan" wrote in message
s.com...

If you are cleared for an approach into an airport without radar approach
service, the entire airport get shut down to IFR traffic until you cancel
IFR, so spacing is a non-issue.


That's not true. You can have multiple aircraft cleared for approach at
airports not served by radar, you just have to provide separation. Radar
isn't the only way to separate traffic.



If you conduct a visual approach into a non-towered field and do
not cancel IFR, again the airport remains shut down
so spacing is a non-issue.


You can have multiple aircraft cleared for visual approaches at non-towered
fields.

A pilot's report of leaving an altitude on a PD descent/climb cannot
be used to assign the altitude reported leaving, but it can be used to
assign an altitude that provides minimum vertical separation from that
altitude, so it is still useful.

Hmmm...is there some section that expressly allows that, or is it
allowed because not expressly forbidden? ;-)

I would have interpreted the following section to apply to that
scenario as well, since the implication is not to permit verbal
reports to be sufficient for separation purposes, period, in PD
descents.

-------------snip-------------------
b. Assign an altitude to an aircraft only after the aircraft
previously at that altitude is observed at or passing through another
altitude separated from the first by the appropriate minima when:
....
3. The aircraft previously at that altitude has been issued a
climb/descent at pilot's discretion.
-------------snip-------------------

Can you shed light on the logic?

Where is that written?

-------------snip-------------------
Non-Radar
6-6-2 Exceptions
Assign an altitude to an aircraft only after the aircraft previously
at that altitude has reported at or passing through another altitude
separated from the first by the appropriate minimum when:
....
c. The aircraft previously at the altitude has been:
1. Issued a clearance permitting climb/descent at pilot's
discretion.

-------------snip-------------------

"Greg Esres" wrote in message
...

A pilot's report of leaving an altitude on a PD descent/climb cannot
be used to assign the altitude reported leaving, but it can be used to
assign an altitude that provides minimum vertical separation from that
altitude, so it is still useful.

Hmmm...is there some section that expressly allows that, or is it
allowed because not expressly forbidden? ;-)

I would have interpreted the following section to apply to that
scenario as well, since the implication is not to permit verbal
reports to be sufficient for separation purposes, period, in PD
descents.

-------------snip-------------------
b. Assign an altitude to an aircraft only after the aircraft
previously at that altitude is observed at or passing through another
altitude separated from the first by the appropriate minima when:
...
3. The aircraft previously at that altitude has been issued a
climb/descent at pilot's discretion.
-------------snip-------------------

Can you shed light on the logic?

Where is that written?

-------------snip-------------------
Non-Radar
6-6-2 Exceptions
Assign an altitude to an aircraft only after the aircraft previously
at that altitude has reported at or passing through another altitude
separated from the first by the appropriate minimum when:
...
c. The aircraft previously at the altitude has been:
1. Issued a clearance permitting climb/descent at pilot's
discretion.

-------------snip-------------------


Do you read the material you quote?

Do you read the material you quote?

Normally. ;-) But the .65 has limited meaning for non-controllers,
which is why it is helpful to have those with vast experience moving
traffic, such as you, flesh out the application of various sections.

"Greg Esres" wrote in message
...

Non-Radar
6-6-2 Exceptions
Assign an altitude to an aircraft only after the aircraft previously
at that altitude has reported at or passing through another altitude
separated from the first by the appropriate minimum when:
...
c. The aircraft previously at the altitude has been:
1. Issued a clearance permitting climb/descent at pilot's
discretion.


Non-radar separation is not limited to non-radar environments.


FAA Order 7110.65P Air Traffic Control

Chapter 2. General Control

Section 1. General

2-1-3. PROCEDURAL PREFERENCE

a. Use automation procedures in preference to nonautomation procedures
when workload, communications, and equipment capabilities permit.

b. Use radar separation in preference to nonradar separation when it will
be to an operational advantage and workload, communications, and equipment
permit.

c. Use nonradar separation in preference to radar separation when the
situation dictates that an operational advantage will be gained.

NOTE-
One situation may be where vertical separation would preclude excessive
vectoring.

"Greg Esres" wrote in message
...

Normally. ;-) But the .65 has limited meaning for non-controllers,
which is why it is helpful to have those with vast experience moving
traffic, such as you, flesh out the application of various sections.


You questioned my statement, "A pilot's report of leaving an altitude on a
PD descent/climb cannot be used to assign the altitude reported leaving, but
it can be used to assign an altitude that provides minimum vertical
separation from that altitude, so it is still useful." You asked if there
was "some section that expressly allows that, or is it allowed because not
expressly forbidden?" Your message included a quote of the pertinent
paragraph!

Paragraph 6-6-2 tells controllers to assign an altitude to an aircraft only
after the aircraft previously at that altitude has reported at or passing
through another altitude separated from the first by the appropriate minimum
when the aircraft previously at the altitude has been issued a clearance
permitting climb or descent at pilot's discretion.



FAA Order 7110.65P Air Traffic Control

Chapter 6. Nonradar

Section 6. Vertical Separation

6-6-1. APPLICATION

Assign an altitude to an aircraft after the aircraft previously at
that altitude has reported leaving the altitude.

PHRASEOLOGY-
REPORT LEAVING/REACHING (altitude/flight level).

REPORT LEAVING ODD/EVEN ALTITUDES/FLIGHT LEVELS.

(If aircraft is known to be operating below the lowest useable flight
level),

SAY ALTITUDE.

or

(If aircraft is known to be operating at or above the lowest useable
flight level),

SAY FLIGHT LEVEL.

or

If aircraft's position relative to the lowest useable flight level is
unknown),

SAY ALTITUDE OR FLIGHT LEVEL.

NOTE-
Consider known aircraft performance characteristics, pilot furnished
and/or Mode C detected information which indicate that climb/descent
will not be consistent with the rates recommended in AIM.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Procedural Preference, Para 2-1-3.
FAAO 7110.65, Vertical Separation Minima, Para 4-5-1.
FAAO 7110.65, Separation, Para 7-7-3.
FAAO 7110.65, Separation, Para 7-8-3.
FAAO 7110.65, Separation, Para 7-9-4.


6-6-2. EXCEPTIONS

Assign an altitude to an aircraft only after the aircraft previously
at that altitude has reported at or passing through another altitude
separated from the first by the appropriate minimum when:

a. Severe turbulence is reported.

b. Aircraft are conducting military aerial refueling.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Military Aerial Refueling, Para 9-3-11.

c. The aircraft previously at the altitude has been:

1. Issued a clearance permitting climb/descent at pilot's
discretion.

2. Cleared to CRUISE (altitude). However, do not use Mode C to
effect separation with an aircraft on a cruise clearance.

NOTE-
An aircraft assigned a cruise clearance is assigned a block of
airspace from the minimum IFR altitude up to and including the
assigned cruising altitude, and climb/descent within the block is at
pilot's
discretion. When the pilot verbally reports leaving an altitude in
descent, he/she may not return to that altitude.

REFERENCE-
P/CG Term- Cruise.

Dave Butler wrote:
Matthew S. Whiting wrote:

Dave Butler wrote:

Bob Gardner wrote:

"Maintain 2200 until established, cleared for the ILS." Do you report
leaving 2200 when the glideslope comes down?




Nope, I don't. The glideslope coming down is not a "newly assigned
altitude".



No, but you are leaving a previously assigned altitude which is your
original point as I recall. And the point is that once cleared for
the approach, you are also cleared to enter and leave all altitudes
from that point until you are on the runway.


My "original point" is that we should do what the AIM says with regard
to reporting leaving assigned altitudes for a newly assigned altitude.
The AIM says (paraphrasing) that you should report when leaving an
assigned altitude *for a newly assigned altitude*.

Well, first, the AIM is advisory, not regulatory. However, I also agree
that it is good practice to adhere to the AIM suggestions. I don't
believe that the AIM section you are paraphrasing applies here as I
believe that a visual approach essentially has given you a new altitude
clearance, actually altitude range from where you are at the time of
accepting the clearance down to the airport elevation and thus you are
no longer leaving an assigned altitude.


I viewed a clearance for a visual approach as a newly assigned altitude.
As a result of this discussion, I no longer hold that view. I never
viewed a falling glideslope needle as a newly assigned altitude.

Yes, the visual approach is a newly assigned altitude range which goes
clean down to the runway.


Matt