Emergency instrumentation for cloud encounters

I've got one of these at the airport. Had it in a box for almost 40
years and it still works! Too bad I don't have the space, battery
power, or weight allowance to mount it...

http://www.aviation-dream.com/images...21_Horizon.jpg
http://www.aviation-dream.com/images/Alb_inst/130621_Horizon.jpg

On 4/21/2015 7:55 AM, wrote:
On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 11:43:17 PM UTC-5, wrote:
WARNING: SIDETRACK--TANGENT--WAY OFF COURSE HERE

Whoops, I was in error. I labelled my fingers with "left" and "right" and flew it through with my hand again. Postively-loaded case, wings-level, inverted flight-- you won't be there for long, but if you try to keep the turn rate indicator needle centered, you'll give inputs that tend to roll the glider back to inverted wings-level flight after any deviation. Maybe not such a great thing. Negatively-loaded case-- if you move the stick against the direction of any indicated turn, you'll tend to roll toward a steeper bank angle. Sustained negatively-loaded flight would theoretically be possible by moving the stick in the same direction as any indicated turn-- just like one does when flying inverted visually. Obviously this is all theoretical.

For the most cases in cloud I don't think it's ending up in genuine aerobatic scenarios that the main concern. It's losing control of the pitch phugoid. A rapid increase in bank angle can put you through the redline long before the bank angle reaches sixty degrees. Likewise, a rapid decrease in bank angle during high-speed flight can pitch you up into the start of a loop if you don't react to the decreasing trend of the airspeed needle fast enough.

So yes, I absolutely agree that an artificial horizon is the best way to go. I guess that I've had enough exposure to what is possible with just a turn rate indicator, that I have a hard time believing that an artificial horizon wouldn't give the average pilot a good fighting chance without all sorts of special training. But, that's just me. I suppose the statistics say otherwise.

I'm sure a pilot with Chukar's experience would have done very well with either an artificial horizon or a turn rate indicator.

And I still like the idea of the redundancy provided by a simple, self-contained instrument that will power up in just a few seconds regardless of the aircraft's attitude and flight path. It seems like a good thing to have if the only other other thing one has is something that is built into a vario system.

By the way, an older generation of this same instrument needed to be flown for several seconds in wings-level flight during a calibration phase immediately after the initial start-up. I think they've made a great improvement in modifying the design to eliminate this.

Thanks much for all the various comments so far. It's a topic that I find quite interesting.

S

--
Dan Marotta

On Tue, 21 Apr 2015 05:54:32 -0700, waremark wrote:

On Tuesday, 21 April 2015 12:16:13 UTC+1, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Mon, 20 Apr 2015 22:12:46 -0700, krasw wrote:

For vfr pilot with no training I would install simple electronic AH
(Dynon, Gemini etc.) for the purpose of keeping your glider right
side up and getting out of imc safely. You can fly whole day with T&B
only,
but it requires some training.

I think the same definitely applies to the Dynon electronic AH and its
relations: you still need the training before trying to use it 'for
real'.

I've had some training with a Dynon (bucket over my head in an SF-25)
and find that I prefer using a partial panel, mainly because the Dynon
heading indicator is just a small box showing the heading in degrees: I
don't find it nearly as easy to scan as an analogue indicator or a
ribbon like some of the other electronic AHs provide.

Its just as well I prefer the partial panel because that is what is in
my glider and there is no space in the panel to add an AH.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org |

Martin, I am confused. What instruments do you have in your 'partial
panel' which you prefer to an electronic A-H? Surely you are not saying
that you find it easier to cloud fly using a turn and slip than using an
A-H?

Yes, exactly that: I don't see all that much difference between a T&S+ASI
and an AH for flying straight or maintaining a constant rate 1 turn in
cloud.

Are you referring to straightening up in the right direction when
you have finished thermalling,

Yes. When it comes to straightening out or flying on a heading I find
that a lot easier with a 'proper' compass or LK8000's moving map than I
do trying to use the tiny 3 digit bearing box on the Dynon AH. For me
anyway this is a clear case of 'analogue display trumps digital'.

in which case surely you would level the
wings using the A-H and use your gps or your compass to exit your cloud
in the right direction?

As I'm never far from home without a task set in LK8000, it will always
be showing the leg I need to resume travel along and I reckon that
straightening out along that is at least as easy as using an analogue
compass even after allowing for the map updating lag when turning.

A personal view, of course: ymmv.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 11:12:47 PM UTC-6, krasw wrote:
For vfr pilot with no training I would install simple electronic AH (Dynon, Gemini etc.) for the purpose of keeping your glider right side up and getting out of imc safely. You can fly whole day with T&B only, but it requires some training.

A VFR pilot with no training will only survive a few seconds longer with a full gyro panel than without. The only "hardware solution" for a VFR pilot without extensive instrument training is an autopilot and even then survival would be in doubt without training.

Are the LX devices really running all the time? When you bring up a page showing the A-H it is not actually instant on - it takes a couple of seconds before it indicates that it is live. Presumably the sensors are alive, but there is something else which has to be on before you see the A-H display..


I don't know about the LX but that Vaulter is definitely instant display.

Mel

For those that remember the John Kennedy Jr. mishap. Current pilot with instrument familiarity (required to get SEL license) airplane with good auto pilot and hazy night, not hard IFR. Piont being the deck is stacked against most US based glider pilots. However, with yearly or bi-yearly instrument training and an AH I believe your chances have increased to maintaining control for a minute or two, enough to get you out of the soup. In climbing we always "hoped for the best, excepted the worst and brought what we could". IN other words, train and equip your glider with AH then stay out of the clouds! If you get inadvertent IFR, you have given yourself a better chance of survival.

People might be interested in the discussion about whether cloud flying should continue to be allowed in UK comps linked here
https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/cloudflying
You will notice that there is no reference to inadvertent loss of control. Glider pilots seem to manage to control their aircraft in cloud even though up to now there has been no formal scheme of training or qualification.

How do you guys avoid midairs when climbing in cloud? Does everyone circle left? I can't see even Flarm saving you.

On Tuesday, 21 April 2015 18:02:36 UTC+3, Dan Marotta wrote:
Same could be said for the untrained pilot trying to use an attitude
indicator for the first time.* It's very easy under a vision
restricting device in VMC.* Not so much when using it successfully
makes a difference.


That's what we all are saying here. Do not fly into clouds without proper training. If you do, you might increase your chances with proper instruments.. I bet if there is either T&B or AH to choose, untrained pilot has better chance to survive with AH. But yes, that chance is not 100%.

On Tuesday, 21 April 2015 21:24:09 UTC+3, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Tue, 21 Apr 2015 05:54:32 -0700, waremark wrote:

On Tuesday, 21 April 2015 12:16:13 UTC+1, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Mon, 20 Apr 2015 22:12:46 -0700, krasw wrote:

For vfr pilot with no training I would install simple electronic AH
(Dynon, Gemini etc.) for the purpose of keeping your glider right
side up and getting out of imc safely. You can fly whole day with T&B
only,
but it requires some training.

I think the same definitely applies to the Dynon electronic AH and its
relations: you still need the training before trying to use it 'for
real'.

I've had some training with a Dynon (bucket over my head in an SF-25)
and find that I prefer using a partial panel, mainly because the Dynon
heading indicator is just a small box showing the heading in degrees: I
don't find it nearly as easy to scan as an analogue indicator or a
ribbon like some of the other electronic AHs provide.

Its just as well I prefer the partial panel because that is what is in
my glider and there is no space in the panel to add an AH.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org |

Martin, I am confused. What instruments do you have in your 'partial
panel' which you prefer to an electronic A-H? Surely you are not saying
that you find it easier to cloud fly using a turn and slip than using an
A-H?

Yes, exactly that: I don't see all that much difference between a T&S+ASI
and an AH for flying straight or maintaining a constant rate 1 turn in
cloud.

Are you referring to straightening up in the right direction when
you have finished thermalling,

Yes. When it comes to straightening out or flying on a heading I find
that a lot easier with a 'proper' compass or LK8000's moving map than I
do trying to use the tiny 3 digit bearing box on the Dynon AH. For me
anyway this is a clear case of 'analogue display trumps digital'.

in which case surely you would level the
wings using the A-H and use your gps or your compass to exit your cloud
in the right direction?

As I'm never far from home without a task set in LK8000, it will always
be showing the leg I need to resume travel along and I reckon that
straightening out along that is at least as easy as using an analogue
compass even after allowing for the map updating lag when turning.

A personal view, of course: ymmv.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

I agree that AH is not a major advantage to T&B while thermalling inside cloud. GPS with map display is, compared to plain compass. I have flown most of my imc with T&B only (partial panel?), and now couple of years with AH added (national rules require T&B in any case). I've found couple of instances where AH gives added safety:

1) Straightening up after prolonged thermalling, or centering inside cloud. You just nail the correct pitch additude every single time with AH.

2) Severe turbulence, usually at the top of cloud. Flying straight and level with AH is much more accurate.

On Tue, 21 Apr 2015 22:30:16 -0700, krasw wrote:

I agree that AH is not a major advantage to T&B while thermalling inside
cloud. GPS with map display is, compared to plain compass. I have flown
most of my imc with T&B only (partial panel?), and now couple of years
with AH added (national rules require T&B in any case). I've found
couple of instances where AH gives added safety:

1) Straightening up after prolonged thermalling, or centering inside
cloud. You just nail the correct pitch additude every single time with
AH.

2) Severe turbulence, usually at the top of cloud. Flying straight and
level with AH is much more accurate.

Thanks for that - useful information.

One question: I haven't tried this, but my guess is that a mechanical T&B
will come up showing the correct reading if it is switched on while
turning. It will do this because what it shows is the amount a spring is
deflected by the precession force a gyro applies to it when the aircraft
yaws. Am I right in thinking this?


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |