What if...

"Jose" wrote in message
news
Back in the early 70s, we were taught to dive in the event of an engine
fire.
Second [reason] was that it was the closest way to the ground, and you
need to get there NOW.

Another quick way down is to pull back the power and hold the yoke full
back (controlling bank with the rudders). This takes you down in a stall,
with not much forward speed. Depending on where the fire is, I speculate
that it might be better to have the relative wind blowing from below than
in front.


What aircraft are you flying, and what kind of sink rate does it yeild?

I remember doing that years ago during flight trainning for some reason, but
I don't recall the sink rate was all that good.

I flew a jump plane back in the late 70s, and the owner always insisted on
bringing it down with full flaps, near max flap speed, 60 degree bank and
full opposite rudder.

What aircraft are you flying, and what kind of sink rate does it yeild?

A Dakota. I don't remember the sink rate, but the sink angle was
terrific. I'll have to go up and try it again.

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 23:54:18 -0400, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote:

It seems to me that the thing to do with trying to get down rapidly is drop the
gear and the flaps, no power and the prop set full forward for maximum drag (or
at least to max rpm but not over redline), then dump the nose at the maximum
gear extended speed or top of the white, whichever is the lower of the speeds.

Flaps down? Emergency descent procedure in a Malibu is to chop the
throttle, prop full forward, pop the speed breaks (if equipped), drop
the gear below 165, then go down at max gear extend (up to 195
depending on how rough it is). Top of the white arc is 116. Wouldn't
you get a significantly greater descent rate at near Vne than top of
the white arc?

john smith wrote:
That gets me to wondering... what about a spin?
A spin will give you a high rate of descent at stall speed.

flynrider via AviationKB.com wrote:
A descent rate in a spin is not that great. You can get down much faster
in a steep spiral dive.

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
Particularly after the wings separate. As an aside, back in the old days before
IFR, the poor slobs flying the mail would spin down through an overcast
intentionally, assuming they'd break out high enough to recover before they went
splat. Some won, some lost.

It seems to me that the thing to do with trying to get down rapidly is drop the
gear and the flaps, no power and the prop set full forward for maximum drag (or
at least to max rpm but not over redline), then dump the nose at the maximum
gear extended speed or top of the white, whichever is the lower of the speeds.

The spin is not the problem. The spin is a low speed maneuver as the
inside wing is stalled while the outside wing is flying.
The steep spiral dive at high speed can lead to airframe damage.

This was a topic in the acro community a couple of years ago.
Many pilots believed that the airframe g-loading ratings applied to all
attitudes of flight. It was the T-34 the accident that that had the
Baron wing replacement that set off the discussion.
From that we learned that the g-loadings only applied to wings level
flight.

High angle of bank and high airspeed will result in wing failure below
the manufacturers publish g-loading limit.

"john smith" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Matt Barrow" wrote:

Second - get the plane on the ground PRONTO, but where I want it, not
where
a draggy, gear down configuration might put me in a worse spot than I
already am.

One of the things the POH does say, is that the fast way to get down is
to extend the gear and full flaps.

Does it specify with the engine running? If you've got an engine fire, that
option _maybe_ out.

When you are taking advantage of the turbocharger to go higher, getting
down from over 10,000 to lower altitudes while you're on fire becomes
urgent.

Agreed.

With the gear down, however, you've narrowed your options. Over the midwest,
it's not likely a problem. Over rougher terrain it's a different story.

Maybe I'm just used to flying over rough terrain, so I'm averse to dropping
the gear until I'm "good n' ready".

I've never measured, but I wonder how much a side slip would help dump
altitude.

"Jim Burns" wrote in message
...
I did my commercial work in a 182RG.

I was taught Chop(power), Prop(full), Drop(nose down), Gear (at gear
speed),
Flaps (initial, then full when in white arc), 60 degree bank away from the
fire, holding airspeed at the top of the white arc. It would get you down
fast, add rudder and we'd see over 2500 fpm down. After about 2 turns of
that demonstration, my DE said... Ok, good enough.

Commercial students that I taught this method to needed to be eased into
it,
but after one or two attempts, most found it fun.



Did he have you pick a landing site?

"john smith" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Jim Burns" wrote:

I was taught Chop(power), Prop(full), Drop(nose down), Gear (at gear
speed),
Flaps (initial, then full when in white arc), 60 degree bank away from
the
fire, holding airspeed at the top of the white arc. It would get you
down
fast, add rudder and we'd see over 2500 fpm down. After about 2 turns of
that demonstration, my DE said... Ok, good enough.

Commercial students that I taught this method to needed to be eased into
it,
but after one or two attempts, most found it fun.

Thanks Jim.
That gets me to wondering... what about a spin?
A spin will give you a high rate of descent at stall speed.
If the aircraft is not approved for spins, that might lead to an
indecisive moment. Just because it is not approved, does not mean it
will not recover. It just means that it might not have been tested.

A little something baout spin tested aircraft:
http://www.flycolumbia.com/.docs/_si...tification.pdf

On 2007-04-26, john smith wrote:
From that we learned that the g-loadings only applied to wings level
flight.

High angle of bank and high airspeed will result in wing failure below
the manufacturers publish g-loading limit.

Almost but not quite - it wasn't bank angle but roll rate. You can't
pull as many Gs while rolling at the same time.

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

I honestly don't remember, all I remember is that he called off the maneuver
while we were still pretty high.

I used to practice them over the airport and finish with the power off 180
degree spot landing.
Jim

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...

"Jim Burns" wrote in message
...
I did my commercial work in a 182RG.

I was taught Chop(power), Prop(full), Drop(nose down), Gear (at gear
speed),
Flaps (initial, then full when in white arc), 60 degree bank away from
the
fire, holding airspeed at the top of the white arc. It would get you
down
fast, add rudder and we'd see over 2500 fpm down. After about 2 turns
of
that demonstration, my DE said... Ok, good enough.

Commercial students that I taught this method to needed to be eased into
it,
but after one or two attempts, most found it fun.



Did he have you pick a landing site?

"Jim Burns" wrote in message
...
I honestly don't remember, all I remember is that he called off the
maneuver
while we were still pretty high.

I used to practice them over the airport and finish with the power off 180
degree spot landing.
Jim

While it's flat as a pancake east of here (okay, from a warped skillet), to
the west, one of your first thoughs, in an emergency, would be "Where am I
gonna put this thing down".

Question: If you had to put it down in a muddy or fresh plowed field, would
you want the gear down where it could snag something?

One thing about this thread, it's got me (and I'm sure a bunch of others)
asking some questions we haven't asked ourselves in a long time, if ever.
--
Matt Barrow
Performace Homes, LLC.
Colorado Springs, CO


"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...


Commercial students that I taught this method to needed to be eased
into
it,
but after one or two attempts, most found it fun.



Did he have you pick a landing site?