How safe is the sport of soaring today

(Tom Seim) wrote in message . com...


For whatever reasons you removed yourself from an active pilot status.
You have alluded to safety margins below your personal minimums. This
is indicative of a pilot recognizing their limitations. I don't think
that you witnessed a tragedy and then had a vision, totally out of the
blue, that the sport was dangerous beyond your expectations. I think
your doubts were there all along and the accident merely forced you
into admitting what you were always thinking in the back of your mind.

As always, these are my opinions and your conclusions may differ.

As I never reached "active pilot status", removing myself wasn't a
possibility. Flying a glider and being a pilot are two different
things, I chose to fly, I also chose not to become a pilot.

Almost all of my flight time came far after seeing the first two
crashes, I realized the dangers long before I ever decided to try.
The third was the instructor I had been flying with, that had little
to do with with my decision. My decision was based mostly on
realizing that when the planes were hangared for the winter, it meant
another bunch of money for ground school, (again), at least several
hours of dual in the spring (again), and another trip into downtown
Milwaukee for the written, (again) which I will not do.

My limitations are what ever I choose to push myself to, or what I
deem worth pushing myself to. Absolutely no different than any other
human on the face of this earth. YOu confirmed what I thought, but
don't pride yourself on overcoming "limitations" that I could not. In
any 24 hour period, were you to try to follow me, you would soon find
who is limited and who is not. The only limitation I found was the
time limit that I was willing to devote. Once it was exceeded, it
became something I chose to drop. Partly my fault, partly time
working against me. makes no difference, time and money limit
reached, end of saga.

"A cockpit is a bottomless pit into which one throws large amounts of
money in a futile attempt to fill it." Reason number one that I
decided that continuing was senseless. Pursuit of a goal that only
ends in negative numbers is useless.

I guess you'd never spend money a bouquet of roses and have their
smell linger in your house, plant flowers that bloom all summer then
die, bungie jump or even eat a great meal with a fine bottle of wine
knowing that in the end you would be left with nothing to show for it
other than the experience. A sad way to live your life IMHO. Maybe
when you die you'll be glad you accumulated hole lot of stuff to leave
behind, I'll be proud of the vast number of life experiences I
enjoyed. Soaring being one of them!

Enjoy your life safely,
Don

glider4 wrote:

Shirley,
I agree with JJ. A total of 500 hours is pretty low time to be soaring
in strong weather conditions at a high density altitude airport with
few reasonably safe landable areas near the home field.

Are Michel and I the only ones scratching our heads over this? I
checked my log book. I was flying wave over the foothills west of
Boulder in a 1-34 with 115 hours. My training and advancement was, if
anything, slow and cautious compared to most of my peers. In
retrospect, I would expect any pilot with similar hours who trained on
the Colorado Front Range to be able to safely (and enjoyably) complete
such a flight. This includes the expectation of strong sink and rotor
in the pattern, as well as strong winds on the ground.
Perhaps lower time pilots around here have more flights in stronger
conditions with an instructor in the back than many places(?) Dunno.
BTW, I flew with an instructor yesterday because I felt sufficiently
dusty for the conditions. (I was just feeling current at the end of
March and hadn't flown since :-P )

Shawn

On Mon, 17 May 2004 14:01:50 -0600, Shawn Curry
wrote:

Are Michel and I the only ones scratching our heads over this? I
checked my log book. I was flying wave over the foothills west of
Boulder in a 1-34 with 115 hours.

Don't worry... you are not alone.
In my club one needed 100 hrs total (and a comleted 300 (later 200) km
triangle) to fly the ASW-20L. No problems ever.

I'd estimate that 75percent of the pilots in my club have less than
500 hours.


Bye
Andreas

(Ding.A.Ling) wrote in message . com...
"A cockpit is a bottomless pit into which one throws large amounts of
money in a futile attempt to fill it." Reason number one that I
decided that continuing was senseless. Pursuit of a goal that only
ends in negative numbers is useless.

I guess you'd never spend money a bouquet of roses and have their
smell linger in your house,

When I have roses on three sides of my house, lilacs next to the
garage, and 4300 acres of natural prairie to smell the flowers, I
don't buy them.

or even eat a great meal with a fine bottle of wine

Wine is all rotten grape juice, nothing else. You like the taste of
rot, have at it. The toxic byproduct of a fungal organism is not what
I want to drink in any form. I happen to like my fruit BEFORE it's
rotten. I have never allowed any form of drinking alcohol in my
house, and never will.

Maybe
when you die you'll be glad you accumulated hole lot of stuff to leave
behind, I'll be proud of the vast number of life experiences I
enjoyed. Soaring being one of them!

As I will be proud of the number of experiences I have had, soaring
not one that I'll remember with pride. Sure, it was fun, but living
only waiting for the weekend, and hoping the weather wasn't bad, and
sitting around all winter twiddling my thumbs because I didn't want to
cut into my block time made no sense at all. November 11 2001 marked
the last day I did either one. If you are willing to live your life
with only one interest, and best chances are that you have a single
place glider, can't even share it with anyone else, you may do so. I
am not willing to live that way. It's not a game for the average wage
earner, and I'm not willing to substitute soaring for life.

glider4 wrote:
Shirley,
I agree with JJ. A total of 500 hours is pretty low time to be soaring
in strong weather conditions at a high density altitude airport with
few reasonably safe landable areas near the home field.

As a relatively low-time pilot planning to attent Air Sailing's XC camp
in a few weeks, that's pretty discourging. I'd rather believe that
training and attention to safety are equally as important as having 500+
hours of flying experience.

--
Jeremy
N304GT

I have difficulty accepting the premise that a pilot needs more than 500
hours to be truly a safe pilot. This appears to be snobism.

If soaring pilots are not safe until they reach 500 hours, then those pilots
who choose not to be unsafe would voluntarily not fly, because they would be
unsafe for the first 500 hours.

Each of us can only speak from our own experience. When I took my check
ride for a private fixed wing license, I only had 35 hours. The check pilot
took me to a small airport to do takeoffs and landings. It was an
uncontrolled airport and very hazy. As we approached the airport, I became
uncomfortable flying with the reduced visibility, although I realized it was
still legal. I advised the check pilot that I was beyond my limits and was
going to turn around. He stated that I was too safe and cautious and that
it was legal to fly. He had about 10,000 hours of flying.

The following week, he was flying a twin engine Cessna on a charter during a
storm. He flew into a mountain in Cranbrook, BC.

Safety involves not exceeding the limits of your aircraft or your ability.
It is based upon knowledge, attitude and check lists. Unless the hours
increases knowledge or attitude, it does not necessarily make a safer pilot.

Colin


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In NTSB reports on aircraft accidents, frequently you will see mention
of "contributing factors". IMHO contributing factors usually don't
cause accidents, they just increase the odds that an accident will
occur. When any of the following apply you are increasing your risk
- new to type
- first few flights of the season or lack of currency
- flying at a high density airport
- having a get back to the runway fixation
- dehydration
- interuptions during rigging
- strong x-winds or excessive turbulence
- flying out of an unfamiliar airport

I only have about 2,600 hours in gliders spread over 37 years. I say
only 2,600 hours because I consider myself to still be a student of
the sport. I also believe it necessary to fly a minimum of 100 hours a
year to remain current at a professional level of skill - I have a
commercial rating. There have been many times when I have not meet my
targeted 100 hour minimum within the prior rolling 12 month period.
So, am I safe to fly during those periods? Yes, but I recognize that I
am not as sharp as when I am keeping to my 100 hour minimum currency
objective. Perhaps my self assessment metrics are a bit more demanding
than the average recreational soaring pilot - I don't know.

It's easy to think you know a lot about soaring when you reach 500
hours of time. The retrospective view from 1,000 hours or 2,000 hours
puts a different light on the level of skill you really had at 500
hours. Perhaps at 5,000 hours I'll look back and think the same thing
about my current skill level at 2,600 hours. I just want to be sure I
make it to 5,000 hours.

I guess the point of my rambling is that you need to be honest about
your individual skill level. Do that by comparing your skills to those
of the most experienced soaring pilots in the world - you know the
guys that have been winning National and World contests year after
year AND maintain an accident free record. But no matter what your
experience level, realize that contributing factors may significantly
increase your risk exposure and act accoringly.

"Shirley" wrote in message
...
wrote:
When I had 500 hours in gliders, I understood
just how much I didn't know.

shrug I wasn't suggesting it means one would know all there is to know
.... no
matter what number you're at, there's always a huge element of unknown,
isn't
there? Still, at 500 hours, unless you were asleep, how much *did* you
know?
With some flights being only 10 or 15 minutes (or even less), 500 hours
isn't a
fair chunk of experience? And of at least some importance would be how
that
time was spaced over x-number of years, wouldn it? Isn't the danger in the
complacent attitude that having reached ANY arbitrary number, that you
suddenly
you know more than you don't?


There were some numbers presented several years ago that showed an soaring
accident spike around 500 hours. I don't recall if there were ever any
correlations made with racing, record flying, or anything else. May have
appeared in Soaring or S&G. Anyone recall this and any conclusions made?

Frank Whiteley
Colorado

(Lennie the Lurker) wrote in message . com...
(Tom Seim) wrote in message . com...


For whatever reasons you removed yourself from an active pilot status.
You have alluded to safety margins below your personal minimums. This
is indicative of a pilot recognizing their limitations. I don't think
that you witnessed a tragedy and then had a vision, totally out of the
blue, that the sport was dangerous beyond your expectations. I think
your doubts were there all along and the accident merely forced you
into admitting what you were always thinking in the back of your mind.

As always, these are my opinions and your conclusions may differ.

As I never reached "active pilot status", removing myself wasn't a
possibility. Flying a glider and being a pilot are two different
things, I chose to fly, I also chose not to become a pilot.

Almost all of my flight time came far after seeing the first two
crashes, I realized the dangers long before I ever decided to try.
The third was the instructor I had been flying with, that had little
to do with with my decision. My decision was based mostly on
realizing that when the planes were hangared for the winter, it meant
another bunch of money for ground school, (again), at least several
hours of dual in the spring (again), and another trip into downtown
Milwaukee for the written, (again) which I will not do.

My limitations are what ever I choose to push myself to, or what I
deem worth pushing myself to. Absolutely no different than any other
human on the face of this earth. YOu confirmed what I thought, but
don't pride yourself on overcoming "limitations" that I could not. In
any 24 hour period, were you to try to follow me, you would soon find
who is limited and who is not. The only limitation I found was the
time limit that I was willing to devote. Once it was exceeded, it
became something I chose to drop. Partly my fault, partly time
working against me. makes no difference, time and money limit
reached, end of saga.

Lennie,

Let's be serious for a moment. In regards to soaring, which is what
this news group is about, you are a quitter. I, on the other hand, am
a triple diamond holder. You don't use your real name (surprise!). I,
on the other hand, do. I don't really care what else you do, it's
irrelevent. But, were you to follow me around for a single day, you
would be totally clueless about things that I am an expert at. So
what? That has nothing to do with this news group. You are basically a
bitter old man. I feel sorry for you.

Tom