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#11
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Anyone flown a SHK-1?
On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 1:00:07 PM UTC+3, Mike Oliver wrote:
I flew one for many years. 1000 hrs+ Can't add anything on the technical side but what I would say is that it remains fantastic value for money. Make sure you get or make good rigging aids, a root trestle at rigging height and a tip trestle along with a wing dolly at the root end and I could easily rig mine single handed without any lifting of the wings. Flew at least 8 flights over 500k here in the UK longest was 564k. Climbs beautifully on the early thermals so could leave early in the mornings. Longest flight time was over 8 hours and never found any discomfort in the cockpit. I'm just under 6'0. Brakes are weak if you have no headwind but a tip I was given (which goes against all training)! was that if seriously too high IN NO WIND conditions and NO TURBULENCE you can open the brakes and raise the nose to take it to the back of the drag curve. It comes down smoothly and rapidly. When back to the correct angle lower the nose and complete approach as normal. It works. I'll bet people will want to come on here who have never flown one and say different but try it at altutude first. I could even do this whilst playing with the rudder and it showed no tendency to drop a wing. Std Libelle brakes are similar. But a slip works better. |
#12
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Anyone flown a SHK-1?
On Sun, 21 May 2017 03:39:09 -0700, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 1:00:07 PM UTC+3, Mike Oliver wrote: I flew one for many years. 1000 hrs+ Can't add anything on the technical side but what I would say is that it remains fantastic value for money. Make sure you get or make good rigging aids, a root trestle at rigging height and a tip trestle along with a wing dolly at the root end and I could easily rig mine single handed without any lifting of the wings. Flew at least 8 flights over 500k here in the UK longest was 564k. Climbs beautifully on the early thermals so could leave early in the mornings. Longest flight time was over 8 hours and never found any discomfort in the cockpit. I'm just under 6'0. Brakes are weak if you have no headwind but a tip I was given (which goes against all training)! was that if seriously too high IN NO WIND conditions and NO TURBULENCE you can open the brakes and raise the nose to take it to the back of the drag curve. It comes down smoothly and rapidly. When back to the correct angle lower the nose and complete approach as normal. It works. I'll bet people will want to come on here who have never flown one and say different but try it at altutude first. I could even do this whilst playing with the rudder and it showed no tendency to drop a wing. Std Libelle brakes are similar. But a slip works better. As Bruce says, its easy to do a full deflection, full-brake slip in a Std Libelle. This turns it into quite a satisfactory brick and compensates nicely for its rather weak brakes if you're a bit high on finals or at a field, such as Borders, that needs a higher descent rate. How vigorously can you slip an SHK? I ask because I've seen a comment that applying full rudder in an SH affected its pitch trim. I've heard that many V-tail control systems may limit the available deflections if deflections on more than one axis are used and am wondering if that limits slipping in an SHK. Disclaimer: I've never flown anything with a V tail. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org | |
#13
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Anyone flown a SHK-1?
I did slip the SHK and can't remember anything too disconcerting but
ruddeer forces needed to be quite high. Of course there's always the tail chute too. As Bruce says, its easy to do a full deflection, full-brake slip in a Std Libelle. This turns it into quite a satisfactory brick and compensates nicely for its rather weak brakes if you're a bit high on finals or at a field, such as Borders, that needs a higher descent rate. How vigorously can you slip an SHK? I ask because I've seen a comment that applying full rudder in an SH affected its pitch trim. I've heard that many V-tail control systems may limit the available deflections if deflections on more than one axis are used and am wondering if that limits slipping in an SHK. Disclaimer: I've never flown anything with a V tail. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org | |
#14
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Anyone flown a SHK-1?
At 11:24 21 May 2017, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sun, 21 May 2017 03:39:09 -0700, Bruce Hoult wrote: On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 1:00:07 PM UTC+3, Mike Oliver wrote: I flew one for many years. 1000 hrs+ Can't add anything on the technical side but what I would say is that it remains fantastic value for money. Make sure you get or make good rigging aids, a root trestle at rigging height and a tip trestle along with a wing dolly at the root end and I could easily rig mine single handed without any lifting of the wings. Flew at least 8 flights over 500k here in the UK longest was 564k. Climbs beautifully on the early thermals so could leave early in the mornings. Longest flight time was over 8 hours and never found any discomfort in the cockpit. I'm just under 6'0. Brakes are weak if you have no headwind but a tip I was given (which goes against all training)! was that if seriously too high IN NO WIND conditions and NO TURBULENCE you can open the brakes and raise the nose to take it to the back of the drag curve. It comes down smoothly and rapidly. When back to the correct angle lower the nose and complete approach as normal. It works. I'll bet people will want to come on here who have never flown one and say different but try it at altutude first. I could even do this whilst playing with the rudder and it showed no tendency to drop a wing. Std Libelle brakes are similar. But a slip works better. As Bruce says, its easy to do a full deflection, full-brake slip in a Std Libelle. This turns it into quite a satisfactory brick and compensates nicely for its rather weak brakes if you're a bit high on finals or at a field, such as Borders, that needs a higher descent rate. How vigorously can you slip an SHK? I ask because I've seen a comment that applying full rudder in an SH affected its pitch trim. I've heard that many V-tail control systems may limit the available deflections if deflections on more than one axis are used and am wondering if that limits slipping in an SHK. Disclaimer: I've never flown anything with a V tail. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org | It's interesting to note that many, possibly most, of the glider and light aircraft types that started out with a V-tail, went over to a conventional tail-plane and rudder if the went on to a mark 2 or other later development In the current context, the first Cirrus was essentially a glass SHK, the prototype inherited the V-tail, the production versions went over to the conventional tail-plane and elevator. |
#15
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Anyone flown a SHK-1?
On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 4:00:05 PM UTC+3, Chris Rollings wrote:
At 11:24 21 May 2017, Martin Gregorie wrote: On Sun, 21 May 2017 03:39:09 -0700, Bruce Hoult wrote: On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 1:00:07 PM UTC+3, Mike Oliver wrote: I flew one for many years. 1000 hrs+ Can't add anything on the technical side but what I would say is that it remains fantastic value for money. Make sure you get or make good rigging aids, a root trestle at rigging height and a tip trestle along with a wing dolly at the root end and I could easily rig mine single handed without any lifting of the wings. Flew at least 8 flights over 500k here in the UK longest was 564k. Climbs beautifully on the early thermals so could leave early in the mornings. Longest flight time was over 8 hours and never found any discomfort in the cockpit. I'm just under 6'0. Brakes are weak if you have no headwind but a tip I was given (which goes against all training)! was that if seriously too high IN NO WIND conditions and NO TURBULENCE you can open the brakes and raise the nose to take it to the back of the drag curve. It comes down smoothly and rapidly. When back to the correct angle lower the nose and complete approach as normal. It works. I'll bet people will want to come on here who have never flown one and say different but try it at altutude first. I could even do this whilst playing with the rudder and it showed no tendency to drop a wing. Std Libelle brakes are similar. But a slip works better. As Bruce says, its easy to do a full deflection, full-brake slip in a Std Libelle. This turns it into quite a satisfactory brick and compensates nicely for its rather weak brakes if you're a bit high on finals or at a field, such as Borders, that needs a higher descent rate. How vigorously can you slip an SHK? I ask because I've seen a comment that applying full rudder in an SH affected its pitch trim. I've heard that many V-tail control systems may limit the available deflections if deflections on more than one axis are used and am wondering if that limits slipping in an SHK. Disclaimer: I've never flown anything with a V tail. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org | It's interesting to note that many, possibly most, of the glider and light aircraft types that started out with a V-tail, went over to a conventional tail-plane and rudder if the went on to a mark 2 or other later development In the current context, the first Cirrus was essentially a glass SHK, the prototype inherited the V-tail, the production versions went over to the conventional tail-plane and elevator. ITYM "all-flying tailplane" |
#16
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Anyone flown a SHK-1?
On Sun, 21 May 2017 06:28:00 -0700, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 4:00:05 PM UTC+3, Chris Rollings wrote: At 11:24 21 May 2017, Martin Gregorie wrote: On Sun, 21 May 2017 03:39:09 -0700, Bruce Hoult wrote: On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 1:00:07 PM UTC+3, Mike Oliver wrote: I flew one for many years. 1000 hrs+ Can't add anything on the technical side but what I would say is that it remains fantastic value for money. Make sure you get or make good rigging aids, a root trestle at rigging height and a tip trestle along with a wing dolly at the root end and I could easily rig mine single handed without any lifting of the wings. Flew at least 8 flights over 500k here in the UK longest was 564k. Climbs beautifully on the early thermals so could leave early in the mornings. Longest flight time was over 8 hours and never found any discomfort in the cockpit. I'm just under 6'0. Brakes are weak if you have no headwind but a tip I was given (which goes against all training)! was that if seriously too high IN NO WIND conditions and NO TURBULENCE you can open the brakes and raise the nose to take it to the back of the drag curve. It comes down smoothly and rapidly. When back to the correct angle lower the nose and complete approach as normal. It works. I'll bet people will want to come on here who have never flown one and say different but try it at altutude first. I could even do this whilst playing with the rudder and it showed no tendency to drop a wing. Std Libelle brakes are similar. But a slip works better. As Bruce says, its easy to do a full deflection, full-brake slip in a Std Libelle. This turns it into quite a satisfactory brick and compensates nicely for its rather weak brakes if you're a bit high on finals or at a field, such as Borders, that needs a higher descent rate. How vigorously can you slip an SHK? I ask because I've seen a comment that applying full rudder in an SH affected its pitch trim. I've heard that many V-tail control systems may limit the available deflections if deflections on more than one axis are used and am wondering if that limits slipping in an SHK. Disclaimer: I've never flown anything with a V tail. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org | It's interesting to note that many, possibly most, of the glider and light aircraft types that started out with a V-tail, went over to a conventional tail-plane and rudder if the went on to a mark 2 or other later development In the current context, the first Cirrus was essentially a glass SHK, the prototype inherited the V-tail, the production versions went over to the conventional tail-plane and elevator. ITYM "all-flying tailplane" Early ones, yes. After that they first got rather more washout twisted into the wing and final versions had a conventional tailplane plus elevators. I've never flown any of them, but I have crawled round and sat in a late one with normal elevators (VTC built G/81). Biggest cockpit I've ever sat in and even more limited rear view than an SZD Junior. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org | |
#17
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Anyone flown a SHK-1?
On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 3:00:07 AM UTC-7, Mike Oliver wrote:
Brakes are weak if you have no headwind but a tip I was given (which goes against all training)! was that if seriously too high IN NO WIND conditions and NO TURBULENCE you can open the brakes and raise the nose to take it to the back of the drag curve. It comes down smoothly and rapidly. When back to the correct angle lower the nose and complete approach as normal. It works. I'll bet people will want to come on here who have never flown one and say different but try it at altutude first. I could even do this whilst playing with the rudder and it showed no tendency to drop a wing. Lovely glider, sometimes I regret moving on. To get my Austria S down, I go the opposite way. I add about 5 knots airspeed. It is my experience that the air brakes are significantly more effective at or above 60 knots. 55 knots, not much happening. 65 knots, she is coming down, for sure. My particular airframe - and, note, mine is an early example with a NACA airfoil - seems to have a 'knee' in the lift/speed curve. It tends to pop up on aerotow round about the end of the runway. I have thought that and the airbrake behaviour may be related. Bruce |
#18
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Anyone flown a SHK-1?
On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 8:30:16 PM UTC+3, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sun, 21 May 2017 06:28:00 -0700, Bruce Hoult wrote: On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 4:00:05 PM UTC+3, Chris Rollings wrote: At 11:24 21 May 2017, Martin Gregorie wrote: On Sun, 21 May 2017 03:39:09 -0700, Bruce Hoult wrote: On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 1:00:07 PM UTC+3, Mike Oliver wrote: I flew one for many years. 1000 hrs+ Can't add anything on the technical side but what I would say is that it remains fantastic value for money. Make sure you get or make good rigging aids, a root trestle at rigging height and a tip trestle along with a wing dolly at the root end and I could easily rig mine single handed without any lifting of the wings. Flew at least 8 flights over 500k here in the UK longest was 564k. Climbs beautifully on the early thermals so could leave early in the mornings. Longest flight time was over 8 hours and never found any discomfort in the cockpit. I'm just under 6'0. Brakes are weak if you have no headwind but a tip I was given (which goes against all training)! was that if seriously too high IN NO WIND conditions and NO TURBULENCE you can open the brakes and raise the nose to take it to the back of the drag curve. It comes down smoothly and rapidly. When back to the correct angle lower the nose and complete approach as normal. It works. I'll bet people will want to come on here who have never flown one and say different but try it at altutude first. I could even do this whilst playing with the rudder and it showed no tendency to drop a wing. Std Libelle brakes are similar. But a slip works better. As Bruce says, its easy to do a full deflection, full-brake slip in a Std Libelle. This turns it into quite a satisfactory brick and compensates nicely for its rather weak brakes if you're a bit high on finals or at a field, such as Borders, that needs a higher descent rate. How vigorously can you slip an SHK? I ask because I've seen a comment that applying full rudder in an SH affected its pitch trim. I've heard that many V-tail control systems may limit the available deflections if deflections on more than one axis are used and am wondering if that limits slipping in an SHK. Disclaimer: I've never flown anything with a V tail. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org | It's interesting to note that many, possibly most, of the glider and light aircraft types that started out with a V-tail, went over to a conventional tail-plane and rudder if the went on to a mark 2 or other later development In the current context, the first Cirrus was essentially a glass SHK, the prototype inherited the V-tail, the production versions went over to the conventional tail-plane and elevator. ITYM "all-flying tailplane" Early ones, yes. After that they first got rather more washout twisted into the wing and final versions had a conventional tailplane plus elevators. When someone says "the first Cirrus was essentially a glass SHK, the prototype inherited the V-tail, the production versions went over to the conventional tail-plane and elevator" I tend to the assumption they're talking about "early" ones -- which are the vast majority of examples in NZ. |
#19
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Anyone flown a SHK-1?
On Sun, 21 May 2017 13:39:31 -0700, Bruce Hoult wrote:
When someone says "the first Cirrus was essentially a glass SHK, the prototype inherited the V-tail, the production versions went over to the conventional tail-plane and elevator" I tend to the assumption they're talking about "early" ones -- which are the vast majority of examples in NZ. Understood: apparently only the first prototype had a V-tail, so I'd expect the "early" Cirruses in NZ to be T-tailed with all flying tails. I also know that the first production Std Cirrii had 1.5 degrees washout on the wing and were a bit prone to tip stalling and spinning. Later Std Cirrii had 3 degrees of washout which, apparently cost them some performance but killed the tip stalling tendency, but I have no idea what Wrk.Nr this change applied to. It would be interesting to know which group most NZ-registered Std Cirri fall in. I've heard it said that Std Cirri dominated Club Class until the ones with 1.5 degrees of washout had all been broken and that after that Std Libelles took over. Make what you will of that! -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org | |
#20
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Anyone flown a SHK-1?
At 22:36 21 May 2017, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sun, 21 May 2017 13:39:31 -0700, Bruce Hoult wrote: When someone says "the first Cirrus was essentially a glass SHK, the prototype inherited the V-tail, the production versions went over to the conventional tail-plane and elevator" I tend to the assumption they're talking about "early" ones -- which are the vast majority of examples in NZ. Understood: apparently only the first prototype had a V-tail, so I'd expect the "early" Cirruses in NZ to be T-tailed with all flying tails. I also know that the first production Std Cirrii had 1.5 degrees washout on the wing and were a bit prone to tip stalling and spinning. Later Std Cirrii had 3 degrees of washout which, apparently cost them some performance but killed the tip stalling tendency, but I have no idea what Wrk.Nr this change applied to. It would be interesting to know which group most NZ-registered Std Cirri fall in. I've heard it said that Std Cirri dominated Club Class until the ones with 1.5 degrees of washout had all been broken and that after that Std Libelles took over. Make what you will of that! -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org | The change over came in the spring/summer of 1972 as I was working at S-H as a summer student. I helped lay up the first sets of increased twist wings. Sorry, I don't recall the serial numbers. If you want to buy a pre-1972 Std Cirrus, make sure you determine the turning stall/spin characteristics and speeds (at altitude) before you buy it. If it behaves differently (one direction compared to the other) don't buy it. RO |
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