Change in AIM wording concerning procedure turn

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Dave Butler" wrote in message
news:1128008552.97305@sj-nntpcache-3...

The controller's permission doesn't absolve you of the requirement to
follow the FARs.



What FAR states when a procedure turn is required?

Point taken, Mr. Socrates.




You could ask for a vector.



A vector to where? The FAC? Aren't you already on it?

A vector to the FAC. The poster to whom I responded didn't say whether he was
aligned on the FAC. He just suggested that one could ask the controller's
permission to skip the PT. I suggested that one could instead ask for a VTF, so
that the condition for skipping the PT would be met.

150flivver wrote:
/snip/

I'd ask the controller for permission to proceed inbound sans procedure
turn if that's what I wanted to do.


Just because a controller lets you do something, doesn't make it legal
or safe.

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane

I see a change here. The procedure turn is NOW required IF a course
reversal is necessary. If you are straight in, or nearly so, but NOT on
radar vectors there is no longer any regulatory requirement to do a
procedure turn. I have never seen sense operationally to do one if I am
straight in and at the right altitude. Actually to clear this up, I
think they need to clarify how many degrees off constitutes a "course
reversal". I for one disagreed with having to do a proc turn when I am
straight in, on altitude and ready to continue, and under those
circumstances never would do one anyway, based on the safety of the
flight. If you aren't under radar vectors it's pretty much always one
in or one out at the airport at time, so it's not a matter of timing
seperation, ATC gives you the full area of the approach PT or no, so
that has never been an issue.

I agree. The online AIM also indicates the underlined text. See
http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap5/aim0504.html#5-4-9:

"a. A procedure turn is the maneuver prescribed to perform a course
reversal to establish the aircraft inbound on an intermediate or final
approach course. The procedure turn or hold in lieu of procedure turn
is a required maneuver when it is necessary to perform a course
reversal."

Thus, if you're already inbound on the final course (assuming you're at
the altitude the procedure requires), no PT is required.

On 29 Sep 2005 09:20:51 -0700, "Doug" wrote:

I see a change here. The procedure turn is NOW required IF a course
reversal is necessary. If you are straight in, or nearly so, but NOT on
radar vectors there is no longer any regulatory requirement to do a
procedure turn.

What regulation was changed?

It seems to me that only the AIM was changed; I'm not aware of any
regulatory changes.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"150flivver" wrote in message
ups.com...

This was discussed on the AOPA's board. The FAA did not intend to
change the meaning--it was supposed to be a clarification. The
procedure turn remains required even if your course happenes to be
aligned with the inbound course unless the symbol "No PT" is shown,
when RADAR VECTORING to the final approach course is provided, when
conducting a timed approach, or when the procedure turn is not
authorized.


What makes the procedure turn required?



I'd ask the controller for permission to proceed inbound sans procedure
turn if that's what I wanted to do.


What difference would that make? It's either required or it isn't, the
controller can't override the FARs.

"rps" wrote in message
oups.com...
Doesn't the underlining just mean that the text was added?

Jeppesen places a vertical line at the side of the page to indicate
changed/added text.
The text was moved, not added. It was italicized in the Jeppesen edition
and underlined in the FAA online version.
My guess is that it is underlined for emphasis.

Kris

"Kris Kortokrax" wrote in message
...
New text

5-4-9. Procedure Turn
a. A procedure turn is the maneuver prescribed to perform a course
reversal to establish the aircraft inbound on an intermediate or final
approach course. The procedure turn or hold in lieu of procedure turn is a
required maneuver

(the following text is underlined in the AIM)
when it is necessary to perform a course reversal.

The procedure turn is not required when the symbol "No PT" is shown, when
RADAR VECTORING to the final approach course is provided, when conducting
a timed approach, or when the procedure turn is not authorized.

The new text strikes me as entirely ambiguous. It could mean:

"The procedure turn is a required maneuver, unless one of the following
conditions obtains, in which case a course reversal is unnecessary: 1) the
symbol 'NoPT' is shown; 2) radar vectoring to the final approach course is
provided; 3) you are conducting a timed approach; or 4) the procedure turn
is not authorized."

Or it could mean:

"The procedure turn is a required maneuver, unless: 1) the symbol 'NoPT' is
shown; 2) radar vectoring to the final approach course is provided; 3) you
are conducting a timed approach; or 4) the procedure turn is not authorized;
or 5) there is (for any reason) no necessity to perform a course reversal."

The two interpretations differ if conditions 1-4 don't obtain, but the pilot
(and/or controller) thinks there's no need for a course reversal. The first
interpretation says the procedure turn is still required in that case; the
second one says the opposite.

--Gary

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
...
"Kris Kortokrax" wrote in message
...
New text

5-4-9. Procedure Turn
a. A procedure turn is the maneuver prescribed to perform a course
reversal to establish the aircraft inbound on an intermediate or final
approach course. The procedure turn or hold in lieu of procedure turn is
a required maneuver

(the following text is underlined in the AIM)
when it is necessary to perform a course reversal.

The procedure turn is not required when the symbol "No PT" is shown, when
RADAR VECTORING to the final approach course is provided, when conducting
a timed approach, or when the procedure turn is not authorized.

The new text strikes me as entirely ambiguous. It could mean:

"The procedure turn is a required maneuver, unless one of the following
conditions obtains, in which case a course reversal is unnecessary: 1) the
symbol 'NoPT' is shown; 2) radar vectoring to the final approach course is
provided; 3) you are conducting a timed approach; or 4) the procedure turn
is not authorized."

Or it could mean:

"The procedure turn is a required maneuver, unless: 1) the symbol 'NoPT'
is shown; 2) radar vectoring to the final approach course is provided; 3)
you are conducting a timed approach; or 4) the procedure turn is not
authorized; or 5) there is (for any reason) no necessity to perform a
course reversal."

The two interpretations differ if conditions 1-4 don't obtain, but the
pilot (and/or controller) thinks there's no need for a course reversal.
The first interpretation says the procedure turn is still required in that
case; the second one says the opposite.

As a previous poster noted, they need to define how many degrees of turn
constitutes a "course reversal". Then it would clear and unambiguous.
Otherwise it is still is open to interpretation depending on the
aircraft/speed etc.

On 9/29/2005 15:09, S Narayan wrote:

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
...
"Kris Kortokrax" wrote in message
...
New text

5-4-9. Procedure Turn
a. A procedure turn is the maneuver prescribed to perform a course
reversal to establish the aircraft inbound on an intermediate or final
approach course. The procedure turn or hold in lieu of procedure turn is
a required maneuver

(the following text is underlined in the AIM)
when it is necessary to perform a course reversal.

The procedure turn is not required when the symbol "No PT" is shown, when
RADAR VECTORING to the final approach course is provided, when conducting
a timed approach, or when the procedure turn is not authorized.

The new text strikes me as entirely ambiguous. It could mean:

"The procedure turn is a required maneuver, unless one of the following
conditions obtains, in which case a course reversal is unnecessary: 1) the
symbol 'NoPT' is shown; 2) radar vectoring to the final approach course is
provided; 3) you are conducting a timed approach; or 4) the procedure turn
is not authorized."

Or it could mean:

"The procedure turn is a required maneuver, unless: 1) the symbol 'NoPT'
is shown; 2) radar vectoring to the final approach course is provided; 3)
you are conducting a timed approach; or 4) the procedure turn is not
authorized; or 5) there is (for any reason) no necessity to perform a
course reversal."

The two interpretations differ if conditions 1-4 don't obtain, but the
pilot (and/or controller) thinks there's no need for a course reversal.
The first interpretation says the procedure turn is still required in that
case; the second one says the opposite.

As a previous poster noted, they need to define how many degrees of turn
constitutes a "course reversal".

This is defined; in the TERPS. More than 30 degrees or more than 300'
and a procedure turn is needed (IIRC).

However, this just gives the procedure designer what they need to design
the procedures. The pilot needs to use the published procedure.


Then it would clear and unambiguous.
Otherwise it is still is open to interpretation depending on the
aircraft/speed etc.




--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA