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No SID in clearance, fly it anyway?



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 31st 03, 09:34 PM
Roy Smith
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Default No SID in clearance, fly it anyway?

Had a strange thing happen to me today. I filed IFR HPN - HFD (White
Plains NY to Hartford CT). The route part of my clearance came back
"radar vectors Carmel[VOR], V1, Hartford[VOR], Direct".

Usually out of HPN I would expect to get the Westchester-1 departure,
but it wasn't in my clearance, and I when I read back the clearance
without it, I got "readback correct". Seemed a little strange, but I
went with the flow (I should have asked for clarification, I'm not
sure why I didn't). The turn in the SID took us away from our first
fix, so I guess I figured they were just doing us a favor or something
with a shorter routing.

We took off and I started climbing straight out. The HPN-1 has an
almost 180-degree turn almost immediately. The guy I was with asked
me why I wasn't making the turn and I said we weren't on the SID. I
asked tower and they said I should be on the SID.

So, what went wrong? Did I goof? Am I supposed to fly the SID (not a
DP) even though it's not in the clearance? Is it more likely that it
was in the clearance but I just didn't hear it and the controller
didn't notice that it wasn't in the readback?
  #2  
Old October 31st 03, 09:51 PM
Ben Jackson
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Default

In article , Roy Smith wrote:
Had a strange thing happen to me today. I filed IFR HPN - HFD (White
Plains NY to Hartford CT). The route part of my clearance came back
"radar vectors Carmel[VOR], V1, Hartford[VOR], Direct".


Aim 5-2-3(d)

ATC procedures now require the controller to state the DP name, the
current number and the DP transition name after the phrase "Cleared to
(destination) airport" and prior to the phrase, "then as filed," for ALL
departure clearances when the DP or DP transition is to be flown. The
procedures apply whether or not the DP is filed in the flight plan.

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/
  #3  
Old October 31st 03, 10:17 PM
Greg Esres
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Default

Am I supposed to fly the SID (not a DP) even though it's not in the
clearance?

From the 7110.65, Air Traffic Controllers Handbook:

----------snip----------------
If a published IFR departure procedure is not included in an ATC
clearance, compliance with such a procedure is the pilot's
prerogative.
----------snip----------------

Sounds like the controller goofed.
  #8  
Old November 1st 03, 04:14 AM
Roy Smith
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Default

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
According to my Jepp charts, the Westchester-1 departure *is* an Obstacle
departure procedure.


Hmmm. I guess that's what the word "OBSTACLE" printed above the title
name means, huh? :-)

If you were flying under Part 91, there is no
obligation to fly either an obstacle DP or a SID if they are not given to
you in the clearance.

However, it is your right to fly any ODP, even if it is not given to you in
your clearance.

If you don't fly the ODP, you are responsible for your own obstacle
clearance until you are receiving radar vectors from the controller.

At an unfamiliar airport, I will fly any published ODP's. But at a
familiar airport, I might take some shortcuts if I know I can maintain
obstacle clearance.


Well, in this case, it was my home airport, daytime, severe clear, and
no significant terrain beyond the trees at the airport boundary. We
were taking off on runway 16, the SID said right turn to 320, and my
first waypoint was on a heading of about 040 (i.e. a left turn). So, in
theory, until the time I was actually given a vector, I would have been
within my rights to turn left to 040 as soon as I felt it was safe?
  #9  
Old November 1st 03, 04:30 AM
No Spam
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Posts: n/a
Default

Had a strange thing happen to me today. I filed IFR HPN - HFD (White
Plains NY to Hartford CT). The route part of my clearance came back
"radar vectors Carmel[VOR], V1, Hartford[VOR], Direct".

Usually out of HPN I would expect to get the Westchester-1 departure,
but it wasn't in my clearance, and I when I read back the clearance
without it, I got "readback correct". Seemed a little strange, but I
went with the flow (I should have asked for clarification, I'm not
sure why I didn't). The turn in the SID took us away from our first
fix, so I guess I figured they were just doing us a favor or something
with a shorter routing.

We took off and I started climbing straight out. The HPN-1 has an
almost 180-degree turn almost immediately. The guy I was with asked
me why I wasn't making the turn and I said we weren't on the SID. I
asked tower and they said I should be on the SID.

So, what went wrong? Did I goof? Am I supposed to fly the SID (not a
DP) even though it's not in the clearance? Is it more likely that it
was in the clearance but I just didn't hear it and the controller
didn't notice that it wasn't in the readback?


Since you were to be given radar vectors, and tower normally gives that
first vector (or fly runway heading) you should have asked for the vector
when cleared for takeoff. However, doing so was to help them (CD/Tower) fix
their goof as one of them dropped the ball.

Not your goof; but then the PIC is always the one that runs into the
mountain - not "Them"...

No Spam



  #10  
Old November 1st 03, 04:39 AM
Greg Esres
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Default

However, it is your right to fly any ODP, even if it is not given to
you in your clearance.

Yeah, but you'd better coordinate that with ATC. The AIM doesn't make
that clear.

 




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