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Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?



 
 
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  #21  
Old December 26th 06, 12:49 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
C J Campbell[_1_]
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Posts: 799
Default Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?

On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 15:26:46 -0800, Sam Spade wrote
(in article ):


Or you could have circled-to-land following the normal VFR pattern for
the airport since the weather was VFR. Circle-to-land needs to be
modified to conform to local traffic expectations when the weather is good.


Why? Most towers expect you to circle at the circling minima. They will tell
you if they want you to do something else.

OTOH, if you are going to break off the instrument approach in order to
accommodate the unfounded expectations of VFR traffic, you should probably
cancel IFR considerably before you enter the pattern for either runway,
remembering that once you do that you have to follow cloud clearance rules.

  #22  
Old December 26th 06, 02:49 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Sam Spade
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Posts: 1,326
Default Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?

C J Campbell wrote:
On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 15:26:46 -0800, Sam Spade wrote
(in article ):


Or you could have circled-to-land following the normal VFR pattern for
the airport since the weather was VFR. Circle-to-land needs to be
modified to conform to local traffic expectations when the weather is good.



Why? Most towers expect you to circle at the circling minima. They will tell
you if they want you to do something else.


Why do you think they would expect you to disregard local traffic
pattern and perhaps noise abatement procedures when the Class D surface
area is VFR? If it is a training flight I would certainly make it clear
with them before I descended to the circling MDA (assuming here that it
is significantly lower than standard traffic pattern altitude).


OTOH, if you are going to break off the instrument approach in order to
accommodate the unfounded expectations of VFR traffic, you should probably
cancel IFR considerably before you enter the pattern for either runway,
remembering that once you do that you have to follow cloud clearance rules.

Unfounded expectation?

As to your advice to cancel, that is my option to exercise depending
upon the circumstances. Perhaps the weather is 1,500 overcast and 4
miles. I would like to preserve my IFR clearance at a one runway airport.
  #23  
Old December 26th 06, 02:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
fcoav8r
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Posts: 4
Default Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?


Roy Smith wrote:
In article ,
Jose wrote:

Let's say the airport is using 34, and you're cleared by approach control
for the ILS-16 circle to 34 in VFR conditions as a practice approach. It
would be a very poor idea indeed for you to execute the circling maneuver,
do a low approach, then decide to execute the published missed on your own.
This would have you swimming upstream against the traffic on final for 34.


Well, the way we are supposed to execute a missed approach is turn
towards the airport environment and then fly the procedure as published
unless otherwise told by ATC. So, if shooting the ILS-16 CTL 34 the
Pilot would fly the published MAP for the ILS-16 approach. If he
looses visual reference with the runway on downwind 34 he sould make an
initial climbing (90º) turn towards the runway (not necessary if
already on base) and then once he estimates he is over the runway, he
should execute the MAP as published unless otherwise told or vectored
by ATC.

While I'm here I have an interesting one for you:

You are on the LOC rwy 16 approach and (because you reached the MDA
close to the MAP) you are in a position in which you are to too high to
make a safe landing. Wind precludes landing on rwy 34.

Is it legal to circle to land all the way round to rwy 16 provided you
remain in the CTL protected area?

I was told by a Pilot Controller Journalist that although maybe not
safe, he could not see any reason why it wouldn't be perfectly legal.

Can you discuss the uncontrolled and controlled field issues associated
with this ?

Your points of view are welcome.

Thanks

  #24  
Old December 26th 06, 03:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Doug[_1_]
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Posts: 248
Default Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?

In general you are not supposed to turn a botched ILS into a circle to
land. Go missed and come in again.

  #25  
Old December 26th 06, 04:37 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
fcoav8r
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Default Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?

Hi Doug and Merry Christmas

The question was geared towards non precsion approaches such as LOC,
VOR NDB.

Doug wrote:
In general you are not supposed to turn a botched ILS into a circle to
land. Go missed and come in again.


  #26  
Old December 26th 06, 04:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Jim Carter[_1_]
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Posts: 403
Default Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?



-----Original Message-----
From: Doug ]
Posted At: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 8:47 AM
Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
Conversation: Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?
Subject: Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?

In general you are not supposed to turn a botched ILS into a circle to
land. Go missed and come in again.


The question was about a LOC 16, not the ILS so the minimums would have
been higher. Also, the question was about legality not good operating
sense. ;-)

Since you are cleared for the approach, the airspace is yours until you
land, miss, or land harder. Assuming the MDA is at least 600' in a light
aircraft I'd probably be inclined to execute the 360 overhead - after
all, the old pattern altitudes used to be 800' and the 600' would keep
me above obstructions in the immediate vicinity.

Here's another good reason for not shooting LOCs into short fields.

  #27  
Old December 26th 06, 04:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Jose[_1_]
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Posts: 1,632
Default Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?

You are on the LOC rwy 16 approach and (because you reached the MDA
close to the MAP) you are in a position in which you are to too high to
make a safe landing. Wind precludes landing on rwy 34.

Is it legal to circle to land all the way round to rwy 16 provided you
remain in the CTL protected area?


I would say yes, so long as you are above the circle-to-land minima.
Remember, they are usually higher than a straight-in. I presume you
were expecting to land straight in and thus descended to the straight-in
MDA.

Now, suppose you did that... would it be legal to climb to the circle
MDA and circle all the way around? I don't see why not, so long as you
remain visual.

Jose
--
He who laughs, lasts.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #28  
Old December 26th 06, 05:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Mark Hansen
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Posts: 420
Default Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?

On 12/26/06 05:49, Sam Spade wrote:
C J Campbell wrote:
On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 15:26:46 -0800, Sam Spade wrote
(in article ):


Or you could have circled-to-land following the normal VFR pattern for
the airport since the weather was VFR. Circle-to-land needs to be
modified to conform to local traffic expectations when the weather is good.



Why? Most towers expect you to circle at the circling minima. They will tell
you if they want you to do something else.


Why do you think they would expect you to disregard local traffic
pattern and perhaps noise abatement procedures when the Class D surface
area is VFR?


Because you're flying a practice IAP.

If it is a training flight I would certainly make it clear
with them before I descended to the circling MDA (assuming here that it
is significantly lower than standard traffic pattern altitude).


That was done by asking to fly the approach, and getting the (practice)
clearance from ATC and them handing the flight off to the tower.

At least at the towers I've practiced at, they've expected me to fly
the circling maneuver, and they've accommodated it as necessary. After
all, the circling maneuver is part of what I want to practice.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA
  #29  
Old December 26th 06, 05:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Sam Spade
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Posts: 1,326
Default Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?

Jose wrote:
You are on the LOC rwy 16 approach and (because you reached the MDA
close to the MAP) you are in a position in which you are to too high to
make a safe landing. Wind precludes landing on rwy 34.

Is it legal to circle to land all the way round to rwy 16 provided you
remain in the CTL protected area?



I would say yes, so long as you are above the circle-to-land minima.
Remember, they are usually higher than a straight-in. I presume you
were expecting to land straight in and thus descended to the straight-in
MDA.

Now, suppose you did that... would it be legal to climb to the circle
MDA and circle all the way around? I don't see why not, so long as you
remain visual.

Jose


If you have the required flight visibility required for circle-to-land
what you suggest would be legal and (assuming a good skill level)
possibly preferable to doing the miss and starting all over again.
  #30  
Old December 26th 06, 05:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Mark Hansen
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Posts: 420
Default Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?

On 12/26/06 07:46, Jose wrote:
You are on the LOC rwy 16 approach and (because you reached the MDA
close to the MAP) you are in a position in which you are to too high to
make a safe landing. Wind precludes landing on rwy 34.

Is it legal to circle to land all the way round to rwy 16 provided you
remain in the CTL protected area?


I would say yes, so long as you are above the circle-to-land minima.
Remember, they are usually higher than a straight-in. I presume you
were expecting to land straight in and thus descended to the straight-in
MDA.

Now, suppose you did that... would it be legal to climb to the circle
MDA and circle all the way around? I don't see why not, so long as you
remain visual.


The regs say that if you're below the minimum, you must execute a missed
approach. If you're below the circling minima when you decide to execute
the circle maneuver, then you must execute the missed approach.

Now, if you say you climbed back up to circling minima and *then* decided
to execute the circling maneuver, you'd be lying and it would be obvious.

If the winds really did preclude a landing on 34, shouldn't you have known
that before flying the ILS to minimums?


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA
 




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