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#11
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Accepting cable/rope at start.
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#12
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Accepting cable/rope at start.
wrote in message ups.com... Snipped good stuff "Tow failure below 200 ft lower the nose and land ahead, above 200 lower the nose and land ahead or behind", is simple, brief and to the point. If you are at 300 when the tow fails you CAN turn around but you aren't pre-programmed to do so. You may have sufficient runway remaining ahead or have a nice pasture off to the side. Snipped still more good stuff. Matt Michael I would like to gently point out that in high density altitude situations you may need quite a bit more than 200' AGL to get back to the runway on an aero tow departure. 200 feet AGL is not a 'magic' number that assures a safe return to the runway. This past weekend flying from Salida, Colorado the density altitudes were well above 10,000 feet each day. The climb gradient was so flat that you were out of range until the tug made a turn back toward the airport which meant that safe return required more than 500 feet AGL. Fortunately, there were farm fields that could be used in an emergency. This is in contrast to winch launch where the runway is always available. Bill Daniels |
#13
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Accepting cable/rope at start.
On Sep 5, 7:08 am, John Smith wrote:
wrote: yes, the glider will takeoff fine without an emergency plan. Of course it will. The question is whether it will land fine in case of a rope break or another emergency. Or whether the pilot inexplicably makes a 180 from 100ft IDENTIFICATION Regis#: 7476 Make/Model: GLID Description: SLINGSBY GLIDER Date: 09/02/2007 Time: 2055 Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: Serious Mid Air: N Missing: N Damage: Unknown LOCATION City: HUTCHINSON State: KS Country: US DESCRIPTION AIRCRAFT WHILE BEING TOWED FOR DEPARTURE, CABLE DISENGAGED, STALLED AND CRASHED, HUTCHINSON, KS INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0 # Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 1 Min: 0 Unk: # Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: # Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: WEATHER: KHUT 022052Z VRB06KT 10SM CLR 32/11 A3012 OTHER DATA Activity: Pleasure Phase: Other Operation: OTHER |
#14
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Accepting cable/rope at start.
I would like to gently point out that in high density altitude situations you may need quite a bit more than 200' AGL to get back to the runway on an aero tow departure. 200 feet AGL is not a 'magic' number that assures a safe return to the runway. .. Bill Daniels Gently, why? This is exactly the point I was trying to make! I used the example of the tow plane not climbing sufficiently for mechanical reasons but density altitude does it just as well. I'm trying to get people away from the thinking that once they have 200 ft they can return to the airport. That kind of thinking drives me nuts only slightly less then hooking up the cable without completing the checklist. We still have people in our club operation who persist in doing this even though they've been through safety reviews where they've agreed it's not the best practice. Goes to show how stubborn old habits are. |
#15
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Accepting cable/rope at start.
This is in contrast to winch launch where the runway is always available. Bill Daniels Is that ALWAYS true Bill? I have never been on a winch though have quite a few car tows including reverse pully of various arrangments and I was under the impression that there may be situations where landing ahead is out though you are to low and/or slow to turn back safely. I think I learned about his in Piggotts book actually which was quite an eye opener after my classic American "hook up and floor it what can go wrong" car tow introduction some years ago. MM |
#16
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Accepting cable/rope at start.
On 4 Sep, 20:55, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
The is related to the other thread on winch launch. I am a firm believer in not accepting an aerotow rope or a winch cable until the pilot is completely ready to fly. I teach my students the same. As a learning routine, I will brief the line person to interrupt the student pilot while he is doing the pre-flight checklist and agressively insist the pilot accept the rope RIGHT NOW. If the student asserts his Pilot in Command authority and tells the line person to back off until asked for the rope, the student passes the test. Is that aerotow or winch? I have flown at a couple of sites which worked n+1 ropes with n tugs, so the pilot at the head of the queue had a rope on an ready to be hooked to the tug as it lined up. It made for a nice quick turnaround. Ian |
#17
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Accepting cable/rope at start.
On 5 Sep, 17:45, wrote:
This is in contrast to winch launch where the runway is always available. Is that ALWAYS true Bill? I think it's often true, and probably mostly true, but I don;t think it's always the case. A winch launch power failure can leave you too far down the runway to land straight ahead but too low to do much by way of fancy manoevres. Ian |
#18
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Accepting cable/rope at start.
On Sep 5, 11:55 am, Ian wrote:
On 4 Sep, 20:55, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote: The is related to the other thread on winch launch. I am a firm believer in not accepting an aerotow rope or a winch cable until the pilot is completely ready to fly. I teach my students the same. As a learning routine, I will brief the line person to interrupt the student pilot while he is doing the pre-flight checklist and agressively insist the pilot accept the rope RIGHT NOW. If the student asserts his Pilot in Command authority and tells the line person to back off until asked for the rope, the student passes the test. Is that aerotow or winch? I have flown at a couple of sites which worked n+1 ropes with n tugs, so the pilot at the head of the queue had a rope on an ready to be hooked to the tug as it lined up. It made for a nice quick turnaround. Ian Ian I think Bill is talking about Aerotow, thats certainly what matt and I are talking about. the method you mention would be fine with me, as long as the rope isnt connected to the towplane until im ready. I envision that your example was using a grid to launch, in which case everything is ready ahead of time it seems. at our club the glider is pulled onto the runway, pilot gets in, tug pulls out while pilot is doing his checklist, rope hooks up, wing goes up and off they go. |
#19
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Accepting cable/rope at start.
Bill Daniels wrote:
This is in contrast to winch launch where the runway is always available. I think this needs a little qualification. Where the winch is on the end of the airfield I'm sure this is true, but when the winch is out in the boonies it may not be the case. I believe there are several clubs in Germany (and one, Jury Hill, in NZ) with essentially just a landing area and the launch line at one side of it. It seems to me that at these sites either a very low break or one high enough to allow a fairly full circuit to be flown should present no problems. However, what about the middle region between 50 and 500 feet? On our field (and yours at a guess) you can land ahead, do a 360 and land ahead or fly an abbreviated circuit. Those options may well be absent with an remotely placed winch. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org | |
#20
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Accepting cable/rope at start.
"Ian" wrote in message oups.com... On 5 Sep, 17:45, wrote: This is in contrast to winch launch where the runway is always available. Is that ALWAYS true Bill? I think it's often true, and probably mostly true, but I don;t think it's always the case. A winch launch power failure can leave you too far down the runway to land straight ahead but too low to do much by way of fancy manoevres. Ian Well, using absolutes is 'usually' a bad idea. Let me say that a cable break on a winch launch is likely to provide more options to land on the runway than may be the case with aero tow. In fact, I can't imagine a situation where I couldn't return to the runway unless the runway is extremely short and narrow, in which case it isn't a suitable winch site in the first place. Normally, by the time you are so high that a straight ahead landing is impossible, you will have enough altitude to circle back for an into the wind landing. If the winch suffers a slow power failure that results in a less than expected climb angle, I'd suggest releasing early and landing ahead before the available runway is used up. Even in this case, arriving over the winch with as little as 200 feet AGL leaves you in the same position you would be in with an aero tow rope break where a 180 degree turn and downwind landing is possible. Please note that I am not advocating 180 turns to a downwind landing on winch launch since it would be extremely rare that such an option is appropriate or even needed. Bill Daniels |
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