Some bad controllers

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Cecil E. Chapman" wrote in message
. com...

Though generally speaking when you land at a towered airport they
usually close your IFR flight plan for you,,, but it is more a courtesy
rather than something they are 'responsible' for,,, so-to-speak. In
the end it is the responsibility of the PIC



When you land at a towered field in the US your IFR flight plan is closed
automatically. ATC takes no action to close it, it's closed simply because
you've arrived at your clearance limit. Action is taken only if you don't
arrive - a search is started.



Doesn't ATC have to take SOME action to confirm your arrival? If not,
how is that different from a landing at a non-towered airport on an IFR
flight plan? How does the computer know the difference?


Matt

I guess to be clearer,,, since I'm getting a lot of reply threads to my
post.... I suppose I am answering in the manner that the D.E. would like, in
answer to the question, "Who is ultimately responsible for whether a flight
plan gets closed or not?" The D.E., would be looking for the response,,,,,
the pilot-in-command.....

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"Jay Somerset" wrote in message
...
Taking a different track, so i changed the thread/subject line...

If you are on a composite flight plan (VFR, then IFR) who is responsible
for
closing the VFR portion of the plan? If the VFR plan is not closed (with
FSS if a true VFR plan) then SAR will be initiated if they cannot get hold
of you within an hour or two.

How does this work with a composite flight plan?



On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 15:39:17 -0800, Jeff wrote:

Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
600.

freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so
I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.

all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
one was talking except me.
then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my
safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some
clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me
down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me
off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.

that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.

"Cecil E. Chapman" wrote in message
. com...

??? So, the process is 'automated' in some way?


It's not "automated", it's "automatic".



What ATC and/or pilot
action toggles the action to closure?


Pilot: Lands.

ATC: Observes pilot land.

That's it. Flight plan is now closed.

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...

And along the same vein, I was reading the AIM the other night and it
said that an FSS should also be contacted to get the IFR clearance at
the appropriate point. I believe the OP said he requested his IFR
clearance from approach control, which is contrary to the procedure
documented in the AIM. It doesn't say that another facility CAN'T give
you the IFR clearance for the IFR part of the composite flight plan, but
it specifically says to contact FSS for this. I assume that is written
there for a reason. Maybe if the OP has followed the recommended
procedure he would have had better luck.


If you call FSS for the clearance, FSS then has to call ATC. If you call
ATC directly you skip the middle man.

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...

Doesn't ATC have to take SOME action to confirm your arrival?


Only if you consider watching the aircraft land to be some action.



If not, how is that different from a landing at a non-towered airport
on an IFR flight plan?


At a non-towered airport ATC is not able to observe the pilot land, so the
pilot must tell ATC he's landed or cancel IFR.



How does the computer know the difference?


The computer doesn't need to know, there's no computer processing beyond the
destination airport.

If a pilot cancels IFR while enroute the controller receiving the
cancellation will enter a "remove strips" message, every ATC position
downline that has received a strip will receive that message. If you're the
last controller, tower controller at a controlled field or the controller
providing approach control services for an untowered field, there's nobody
to pass that message to.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...
If not, how is that different from a landing at a non-towered airport
on an IFR flight plan?



At a non-towered airport ATC is not able to observe the pilot land, so the
pilot must tell ATC he's landed or cancel IFR.

Does the ATC controller then intiate SAR if the pilot hasn't called in
within 30 minutes or so? I'm real nervous now if you are telling me
that it is up to the last controller to initiate SAR if a flight plan
isn't closed by the pilot. I always assumed some computer somewhere
kept track of open flight plans and automatically kicked something out
if one was still open at some time past the ETA.

Seems nuts to be that something as critical as SAR initiation for an
overdue airplane wouldn't be automated when it is so easy to do so.
These are the things computers do best.


Matt

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...

Does the ATC controller then intiate SAR if the pilot hasn't called in
within 30 minutes or so? I'm real nervous now if you are telling me
that it is up to the last controller to initiate SAR if a flight plan
isn't closed by the pilot. I always assumed some computer somewhere
kept track of open flight plans and automatically kicked something out
if one was still open at some time past the ETA.

Seems nuts to be that something as critical as SAR initiation for an
overdue airplane wouldn't be automated when it is so easy to do so.
These are the things computers do best.


There are formal procedures for overdue aircraft, but they are initiated by
humans, not computers. Usually, if an aircraft fails to cancel, they are
found before those procedures become necessary. A phone call to the FBO
works pretty well, for example.

Matthew S. Whiting wrote:

Does the ATC controller then intiate SAR if the pilot hasn't called in
within 30 minutes or so?

You are never out of contact with ATC, how could this be a factor.


I'm real nervous now if you are telling me
that it is up to the last controller to initiate SAR if a flight plan
isn't closed by the pilot.

You are flying to East Podunk towered airport, talking to the center.
You call the airport in sight and the center controller clears you for
the visual or you are given a regular approach. At about 10 miles out
the center tells you to cantact the tower. The tower already knows you
are coming. Now, what is there to worry about?


I always assumed some computer somewhere
kept track of open flight plans and automatically kicked something out
if one was still open at some time past the ETA.

Not for IFR, just VFR.


Seems nuts to be that something as critical as SAR initiation for an
overdue airplane wouldn't be automated when it is so easy to do so.
These are the things computers do best.

ATC is talking to you at all times. That is much better than a computer
keeping track of you.

"Newps" wrote in message
news:HNE5c.21813$_w.486759@attbi_s53...

You are never out of contact with ATC, how could this be a factor.


You're not in contact with ATC when you've switched to CTAF.



ATC is talking to you at all times. That is much better than a computer
keeping track of you.


ATC is NOT necessarily talking to you at all times. Even while enroute
there are areas without direct pilot/controller communications.

Steven P. McNicoll ) wrote:


If you call FSS for the clearance, FSS then has to call ATC.
If you call ATC directly you skip the middle man.

If only all controllers provided this exemplary service. One time last
summer, I overheard two different GA aircraft within a few minutes of each
other attempt to pick up their IFR clearances while in the air inside
Philadelphia Approach's airspace.

The controller, after hearing the second request, asked what is going on
here, then proceeded to lecture all listening that IFR aircraft should be
contacting flight service for clearances when in the air.

The controller then answered the second aircraft and told him to do just
that, then returned to servicing all other aircraft under his control.


--
Peter












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