Some bad controllers

"Mike Adams" wrote in message
news:6rb3c.14830$BA.5150@fed1read03...

I've experienced that very situation also, in Denver and ABQ airspace. It
got so confusing one time, that the controller had to make a broadcast to
explain it to all us VFR flight following types, that he had multiple
transmitters on the same frequency, and not to worry if you don't hear
every transmission. What I've always wondered, is why do they bother? Are
they just trying to save a little electricity? It seems like this
switching
of transmitters on and off is just extra workload for them with no
particular advantage. No one else is using the frequency in that area
except him. What am I missing?


Self abuse. He can't transmit from multiple sites simultaneously on the
same frequency due to interference.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

What I've always wondered, is why do they bother? Are
they just trying to save a little electricity? It seems like this
switching
of transmitters on and off is just extra workload for them with no
particular advantage. No one else is using the frequency in that area
except him. What am I missing?


Self abuse. He can't transmit from multiple sites simultaneously on the
same frequency due to interference.


Of course! I should have thought of that. Although the problem would be
minimized for low altitude sectors, where the chances of a given
aircraft hearing multiple transmitters would diminish at lower altitudes.

thanks,
Mike

I think that the big lesson here, that we can all learn from is not to
accept a descent that puts one amongst the clouds until an IFR clearance is
issued.

Mike
MU-2


"Jeff" wrote in message
...
actually there was a RJ departing, I saw him pop up over the clouds,
there was
a 172 at 2000 ft wanting 5000 but was told to turn towards carefree or
stay VFR,
his choice and there was a archer shooting approaches into IWA, 4 navy
planes
departed IWA to the south 30 minutes after I landed and oh ya, the guy who
made
me have to dive to 5000 because the airspace was so congestested.

I am not saying any controller in class B airspace is not busy, I am sure
they
are.
but so busy to the point where they cannot handle any more arrivals, even
a slow
airplane like mine.

I have a pretty good idea how to do this flying stuff. But as I said, I
will
plan my flights into phoenix differently the next time and get any
clearance I
need from ABQ.




Mike Rapoport wrote:

Yeah, I was sitting right next to him when you called. Visiting the ATC
center ya know? Saw the whole thing. He wanted to finish the game of
solitaire that he was playing on the radar scope and didn't want to be
bothered issuing a clearance, so he made up the whole part about being
busy.
There really were't any airliners departing PHX that night, no military
or
other GA traffic either.

Mike
MU-2

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
and how do you know it was busy ?
were you sitting next to the controller - or is this just another
assumption
on your part?


Mike Rapoport wrote:

Fine, but while flying above the nasty icing clouds, don't ask for
IFR
to
descend to your destination in busy class B airspace!

Mike
MU-2

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...
Mike Rapoport wrote:
If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have
no
business
filing, requesting or flying IFR.

Depends on your definition of nasty. I consider t-storm, funnel
clouds,
and clouds with temps below freezing to be nasty and I won't fly
into
them, at least not intentionally. I hardly think that means I
have no
business flying IFR.

Not sure what the OPs definition of nasty is, but that is mine.


Matt

OK, if ATC was unable to accommodate the request (to stay clear of the
cloud), would you come here ranting about their incompetence? Do you think
the airline pilots would?

Mike
MU-2

"Jonathan Goodish" wrote in message
...
In article et,
"Mike Rapoport" wrote:

If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no
business
filing, requesting or flying IFR.


That's an interesting perspective since most of the airliners in the
local class B seem to want to stay out of the clouds, particularly in
the summer time, to avoid the bumps from convective activity... and I'm
talking about fairly mundane cumulus clouds. Doesn't seem to be a
problem for them, and it's never been a problem for me, but I don't ask
for pop-up IFR clearances either.

The bottom line is that the needs and capabilities of every aircraft may
be different, but just because someone doesn't have a known-ice aircraft
with radar and turbines on the wings doesn't mean that he shouldn't file
or fly IFR. It simply means that he needs to communicate his needs and
reasons for his requests to controllers who may be used to dealing with
a different type of aircraft.


JKG

So you are only uncomfortable flying in the clouds that you filed your IFR
flightplan through?

Mike
MU-2


"Jeff" wrote in message
...
that does not say I am unconfortable flying in the clouds. It only means I
was
trying to avoid the ones at the freezing levels. thats all it means.
nothing
more and nothing less.
your trying to make something out of nothing with out actually being
there.


Mike Rapoport wrote:

Did you write the following?

"I chose VFR the first part of the flight so I could have the latitude
to
dodge clouds to prevent icing."

"so here I am now down from my safe altitude above the clouds"

"then here I am in these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2"

"then he does not want me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700
ft
and to be prepared for the visual. man what a crappy flight"

Mike
MU-2

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
when did I complain about flying in the clouds?

who complained about not getting the ILS in VMC

who said I was not comfortable with flying in the clouds?

I think you misread some things.


Mike Rapoport wrote:

Maybe prepared is not the right word but you make a point of saying
that
you:flew most of the trip VFR to aviod ice and yet you filed IFR
into
class
B airspace and complained about flying in clouds. You accepted the
descent
to 7000 (amongst the clouds) while VFR. So basically you seem to be
complaining about not getting your clearance right away, having to
fly
IFR
in clouds and not getting the ILS in VMC. You also complain that he
made
you descend for traffic, separating traffic is the controllers
primary
job.

If you are not comfortable flying in icing clouds then don't file
IFR in
class B airspace when the temp is below freezing. Most of your
issues
where
of your own making and you should accept responsibilty for them
instead
of
blaming someone else. It is odd that the controller said that he
was
busy
on a quiet freq.

Mike
MU-2

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
and how was I not prepared ?


Mike Rapoport wrote:

If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have
no
business
filing, requesting or flying IFR.

Mike
MU-2

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the
phoenix
area.
I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed
a
composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would
request
my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700
and
few at
600.

freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and
10,000
during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the
flight
so
I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.

all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at
12,000
ft
on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that
mess
either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was
cleared
into
class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my
clearence.
I
start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and
says to
turn
toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to
busy.
no
one was talking except me.
then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now
down
from
my
safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag
between
some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on
radar
and to
turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley
under
some
clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is
covered
by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller
he
got
me
down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would
be
in
trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy
****ed
me
off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me
in a
cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller
told
him to
stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was
"saturated"
with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I
am
in
these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to
decend
to
6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend
to
5000
...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does
not
want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be
prepared
for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even
tell
you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing
power.

that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.

Mike Rapoport wrote:

OK, if ATC was unable to accommodate the request (to stay clear of the
cloud), would you come here ranting about their incompetence? Do you think
the airline pilots would?


I'll concede him one point. He stated he attempted to pick-up his IFR
clearance from ABQ earlier en route but they wouldn't provide service unless he
accepted routing towards Drake, higher terrain, and worse weather. That is an
ugly pattern that has grown worse over the years, sterilization of western U.S.
Victor airways for MOAs even when they are likely not in use.

wrote in message ...


Mike Rapoport wrote:

OK, if ATC was unable to accommodate the request (to stay clear of the
cloud), would you come here ranting about their incompetence? Do you
think
the airline pilots would?


I'll concede him one point. He stated he attempted to pick-up his IFR
clearance from ABQ earlier en route but they wouldn't provide service
unless he
accepted routing towards Drake, higher terrain, and worse weather. That
is an
ugly pattern that has grown worse over the years, sterilization of western
U.S.
Victor airways for MOAs even when they are likely not in use.


Anybody who files IFR from Las Vegas to Pheonix has to expect to go over
DRK.

Mike
MU-2

I don't understand how you got so close to the clouds before you got
an IFR clearance. Outside of class B you have to maintain 1000' above
the cloud layer to remain VFR. I am assuming you were in class E
airspace; if it was class G, then I apologize. Your post indicates
that you were outside of class B, yet you were zig zagging around the
clouds.





Jeff wrote in message ...
Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
600.

freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so
I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.

all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
one was talking except me.
then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my
safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some
clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me
down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me
off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.

that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.

In article . net, "Mike
Rapoport" writes:

OK, if ATC was unable to accommodate the request (to stay clear of the
cloud), would you come here ranting about their incompetence? Do you think
the airline pilots would?


Get off it, Mike. Jeff had an "experience" and he shared it with us and we've
had our comments - pro and con. Your continuing to beat on it will make the
less calloused in the group not post. We will all (you included if you have
anything to learn) be the worse for it. Personally, I've followed the advice
or direction of someone else (both controllers and my wife) and later found
that I wish I hadn't. I'd like this group to be free discussion with less
vitriol.

Chuck

In article , "Matthew S. Whiting"
writes:

Is this true for all positions? I think our local controllers (sleepy
old ELM) sometimes work tower and ground at the same time and you don't
hear the ground communications on tower and vice versa.


My experience when this would happen is that tower says "stay with me" or "stay
this freq" instead of working me on a different freq.

Chuck