Just two days left to try to stop an expensive and worthless FAA mandate on ADS-B

On Tue, 04 Mar 2008 04:22:52 +0000, Ron Lee wrote:

Separate from this, the GA owner can choose whether or not to spend the
extra dollars to gain direct benefit from this network.

Do look into it and determine if the high cost is worth it to you. It
is not to me

We did a survey in our club a while back regarding how the members (each
of whom is an owner, BTW) would like to see money spent on upgrades.
That is, is WX more or less important than traffic, etc.

WX was first (which shouldn't be a surprise). Traffic was #2. This was
a surprise to me given the raw numbers (ie. found in the Nall report).
But we do fly in a congested area, and one of our home airports has a
nontrivial history of nearby MACs.

We didn't weight the survey questions by price; that's probably our next
step. Tossing the price of ADS-B-IN into the mix may very well change
the ordering. But, just from idle chatter, I see that traffic really is
a big concern for us.

On the other hand, I believe that Zaon (?) has said that they'd be
releasing a portable ADS-B-IN based unit at some point. So the cost may
be far lower than what we're seeing today.

- Andrew

On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 16:11:30 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Gideon
wrote in :

I believe that Zaon (?) has said that they'd be
releasing a portable ADS-B-IN based unit at some point. So the cost may
be far lower than what we're seeing today.

Would that portable ADS-B equipment meet the NPRM requirements?

On Mar 3, 9:22*pm, (Ron Lee) wrote:
Did you write "out" where you'd meant to write "in"? *Otherwise, I'm
afraid that I'm not understanding your question.

GA pilots aren't funding equipment in other aircraft. *They are, however,
funding the creation of a network in the air whereby all aircraft
(excluding military? *Nasty, that!) are announcing their positions. *It's
not all that different from transponders, in the sense that putting a
transponder in an aircraft benefits all aircraft, and not just the
aircraft footing the bill.

Incorrect. *Without ADS-B In capability...or talking to ATC,
broadcasting ADS-B Out does nothing for you. *Mode-C does just as
good.

Seems to me that having ADS-B Out only does at least as much for me as
a Mode-C transponder, only better. A TCAS I or II equipped airplane
can see my mode-C and maybe able to avoid me without my even knowing
he's there. Sounds like a benefit to me. If I have ADS-B Out, the
ADS-B In equipped airplane will likewise be able to see me and avoid
hitting me - still a benefit, I think. He'll do a better job of
avoiding me in the ADS-B case because he won't be relying on
directional antenna technology to obtain my azimuth, but rather will
calculate the azimuth to me based on differencing the GPS positions -
a much more accurate calculation. Even if the other guy doesn't have
ADS-B In, but is IFR and talking to center, center will be able to
give much more accurate traffic information than they can with Mode-
C. Yet another benefit for me, even if I'm VFR and not talking to
ATC.

Separate from this, the GA owner can choose whether or not to spend the
extra dollars to gain direct benefit from this network. *

Do look into it and determine if the high cost is worth it to you. *It
is not to me

I think the cost estimates are totally bogus for the GA market. After
all, it's only a GPS and a transmitter.
I'd be surprised if a complete GA market ADS-B Out/In system couldn't
be done for a couple thou.

K l e i n

K l e i n wrote:

I'd be surprised if a complete GA market ADS-B Out/In system couldn't
be done for a couple thou.

K l e i n

You must be kidding yourself. What's the lowest priced IFR certified
GPS? Add to that the lowest price transmitter which all so must be
certified. Add to that what ever needs to be certified to receive the IN
side and display it. Finally add in the cost to certify the whole
thing together. Then pay to install it all.

If any one comes out with a certified ADS-B Out/In for $40K I'll be
surprised. Half that for out only if we are lucky.

On Mar 4, 2:36*pm, Gig 601XL Builder
wrote:
K l e i n wrote:

I'd be surprised if a complete GA market ADS-B Out/In system couldn't
be done for a couple thou.

K l e i n

You must be kidding yourself. What's the lowest priced IFR certified
GPS? Add to that the lowest price transmitter which all so must be
certified. Add to that what ever needs to be certified to receive the IN
* side and display it. Finally add in the cost to certify the whole
thing together. Then pay to install it all.

I'm talking mainly about the cost of ADS-B Out. That unit pretty much
has no user interface at all. Could be a lump that installs
anywhere. Who says it has to be a full blown WAAS IFR GPS? I just
bought a gadget called a SPoT that has a GPS receiver and a Globalstar
compatible transmitter. Cost $135. It has essentially all the
functionality needed for a ADS-B Out. It only needs to transmit on a
slightly different frequency at a somewhat higher power. Are saying
it has to be built with 1980's technology??

If any one comes out with a certified ADS-B Out/In for $40K I'll be
surprised. Half that for out only if we are lucky.

Do you think this has to cost 10 X as much as a Garmin 496? I don't.
I bet Garmin doesn't think so either. Maybe less than 1X496. An Out
only box could cost far less.

K l e i n

Larry Dighera wrote:

On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 16:11:30 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Gideon
wrote in :

I believe that Zaon (?) has said that they'd be
releasing a portable ADS-B-IN based unit at some point. So the cost may
be far lower than what we're seeing today.

Would that portable ADS-B equipment meet the NPRM requirements?

I doubt it since the NPRM only discusses ADS-B Out. To that end, you
apparently need a TSOd GPS/WAAS receiver which will not be portable.

Andrew, if your club folks want weather, buy a 396/496 with XM
weather. Rent it out when people need it. Get a Zaon for traffic.
All that they want is available right now. ADS-B is not the answer.

Ron Lee

I'm talking mainly about the cost of ADS-B Out. That unit pretty much
has no user interface at all. Could be a lump that installs
anywhere. Who says it has to be a full blown WAAS IFR GPS? I just
bought a gadget called a SPoT that has a GPS receiver and a Globalstar
compatible transmitter. Cost $135. It has essentially all the
functionality needed for a ADS-B Out. It only needs to transmit on a
slightly different frequency at a somewhat higher power. Are saying
it has to be built with 1980's technology??

The specs mentioned in the NPRM can only be met with a GPS/WAAS unit
and I am assuming TSOd (in the panel unit).


If any one comes out with a certified ADS-B Out/In for $40K I'll be
surprised. Half that for out only if we are lucky.

Do you think this has to cost 10 X as much as a Garmin 496? I don't.
I bet Garmin doesn't think so either. Maybe less than 1X496. An Out
only box could cost far less.

Ok, lets say it is JUST $10,000 US for the GPS/WAAS receiver and ADS-B
Out unit installed (may be much higher). It is not worth it to me
when Mode-C provides adequate surveillance. PLus for YOU to benefit
you have to talk to ATC (if they have coverage). Most people I know
don't talk to ATC.

Ron Lee

On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 12:34:43 -0800 (PST), K l e i n
wrote in
:

I think the cost estimates are totally bogus for the GA market. After
all, it's only a GPS and a transmitter.
I'd be surprised if a complete GA market ADS-B Out/In system couldn't
be done for a couple thou.

Garmin sells hand-held GPSs for more than a couple of thousand
dollars, and they don't require any installation labor.

K l e i n wrote:
On Mar 4, 2:36 pm, Gig 601XL Builder
wrote:
K l e i n wrote:

I'd be surprised if a complete GA market ADS-B Out/In system couldn't
be done for a couple thou.
K l e i n
You must be kidding yourself. What's the lowest priced IFR certified
GPS? Add to that the lowest price transmitter which all so must be
certified. Add to that what ever needs to be certified to receive the IN
side and display it. Finally add in the cost to certify the whole
thing together. Then pay to install it all.

I'm talking mainly about the cost of ADS-B Out. That unit pretty much
has no user interface at all. Could be a lump that installs
anywhere. Who says it has to be a full blown WAAS IFR GPS? I just
bought a gadget called a SPoT that has a GPS receiver and a Globalstar
compatible transmitter. Cost $135. It has essentially all the
functionality needed for a ADS-B Out. It only needs to transmit on a
slightly different frequency at a somewhat higher power. Are saying
it has to be built with 1980's technology??

If any one comes out with a certified ADS-B Out/In for $40K I'll be
surprised. Half that for out only if we are lucky.

Do you think this has to cost 10 X as much as a Garmin 496? I don't.
I bet Garmin doesn't think so either. Maybe less than 1X496. An Out
only box could cost far less.

K l e i n


While that may be what you think you are talking about you specifically
wrote, "I'd be surprised if a complete GA market ADS-B Out/In system
couldn't be done for a couple thou." But that's OK.

Well what makes you think it isn't going to have to be certified to at
least the level of a TSOd GPS? And what do you think the 496 would cost
if it were certified?

Ron Lee wrote:
Larry Dighera wrote:

On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 16:11:30 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Gideon
wrote in :

I believe that Zaon (?) has said that they'd be
releasing a portable ADS-B-IN based unit at some point. So the cost may
be far lower than what we're seeing today.

Would that portable ADS-B equipment meet the NPRM requirements?

I doubt it since the NPRM only discusses ADS-B Out. To that end, you
apparently need a TSOd GPS/WAAS receiver which will not be portable.

Which is one of the main reasons the price tag is so high.

A more sensible approach would be to allow equipment classed like
handheld GPS for those that aren't going to be doing approaches into
Class B at minimums, but that isn't the proposal.

--
Jim Pennino

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