Some good news

Hi Chris

Thanks for surviving, and many more thanks for sharing your experiences
with us. Your reports will form the basis of our future decision making
while wave flying as well as providing a valuable information for
teaching wave flying skills to new pilots.

On 05/11/2015 03:16, Christopher Giacomo wrote:

While I have zero time under the hood, i have no doubt that an ARHS would have significantly changed my plan for the flight

I believe that your primary mistake was failing to establish the hight
of the cloud base above the terrain before making the decision to
descend. You had the suitable tools available - the Oudie flight
computer and VHF radio. After that, bailing out, or crashing with the
glider, were the only other probable outcomes.

With a "glider cloud flying" rating and a gyro instrument, one would
expect to be able to thermal into the base of a cumulus cloud, climb and
then exit out the side (hopefully on course to the next turnpoint}. This
rating implies that you have the opportunity to practice thermaling into
clouds on a regular basis to keep current. There are not many glider
pilots who can claim that on social media.

With a gyro instrument but no current "glider cloud flying" rating the
best one can hope for is to descend to cloud base without pulling the
wings off. Your glider's speed limiting drag flaps rendered the gyro
instrument redundant.

On Thursday, November 5, 2015 at 11:54:33 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
On 11/4/2015 6:16 PM, Christopher
Giacomo wrote:



While I have zero time under the hood, i have no doubt that an ARHS would have significantly changed my plan for the flight



How would an AHRS change your plan?* I'm not trying to add fuel to
the fire, but please consider that nothing you can practice on a
computer can prepare you for actual IMC flight.* Take a look at this
and understand that the sensations generated by your vestibular
system will likely be too powerful to resist without proper training
and experience.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensor...ns_in_aviation



And here's a youtube video showing two trained and experienced
military pilots who suffer spatial disorientation.* One of them
doesn't survive...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAaeBE7uSzY



There seems to be too many people who think that simply having an
instrument will save their bacon when the chips are down.* You might
get lucky if you make a controlled entry into IMC, but don't bet
your life on it.* Being suddenly enveloped when a hole closes around
you is another story.* Once you were in the soup you made the right
choice to jump.* My only critique of your decision to jump was that
I thought you waited too long.


--

Dan, 5J

Dan,
I think you misinterpreted what i meant by "changing my plan." While i intend to put an AHRS in my next ship and was planning on installing one in the HP, the purpose was to ensure i was at least wings level while doing some sort of benign spiral over more level terrain, and not to get myself out of the sort of situation i found myself in. If i had an AHRS at my disposal, i believe that i probably would have foolishly attempted to use it in order to fly down the valley, rather than tell myself that i cannot trust my senses and eventually bail out.

I am in no way comfortable in any form of IMC, whether it be in a single Cu or in a solid deck. While an AHRS can be a very valuable tool to have in the cockpit, like any other tool, you need to understand both its limitations and your own abilities to effectively utilize it. I plan to work towards developing a far lower cost option for "Get-down" ARHS units, but in no way take the notion of inadvertent flight in IMC lightly... my training told me to jump when that happens, and that's why i did exactly that.
Chris

You're right, Chris. I did misinterpret what you said. Thanks for
clarifying.

On another note, having the 90 deg flaps improves your chances greatly
against total loss of control but provides no help against coming out of
the clouds too low to recover (or not coming out at all).

On 11/5/2015 8:20 PM, Christopher Giacomo wrote:
On Thursday, November 5, 2015 at 11:54:33 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
On 11/4/2015 6:16 PM, Christopher
Giacomo wrote:



While I have zero time under the hood, i have no doubt that an ARHS would have significantly changed my plan for the flight



How would an AHRS change your plan? I'm not trying to add fuel to
the fire, but please consider that nothing you can practice on a
computer can prepare you for actual IMC flight. Take a look at this
and understand that the sensations generated by your vestibular
system will likely be too powerful to resist without proper training
and experience.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensor...ns_in_aviation



And here's a youtube video showing two trained and experienced
military pilots who suffer spatial disorientation. One of them
doesn't survive...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAaeBE7uSzY



There seems to be too many people who think that simply having an
instrument will save their bacon when the chips are down. You might
get lucky if you make a controlled entry into IMC, but don't bet
your life on it. Being suddenly enveloped when a hole closes around
you is another story. Once you were in the soup you made the right
choice to jump. My only critique of your decision to jump was that
I thought you waited too long.


--

Dan, 5J
Dan,
I think you misinterpreted what i meant by "changing my plan." While i intend to put an AHRS in my next ship and was planning on installing one in the HP, the purpose was to ensure i was at least wings level while doing some sort of benign spiral over more level terrain, and not to get myself out of the sort of situation i found myself in. If i had an AHRS at my disposal, i believe that i probably would have foolishly attempted to use it in order to fly down the valley, rather than tell myself that i cannot trust my senses and eventually bail out.

I am in no way comfortable in any form of IMC, whether it be in a single Cu or in a solid deck. While an AHRS can be a very valuable tool to have in the cockpit, like any other tool, you need to understand both its limitations and your own abilities to effectively utilize it. I plan to work towards developing a far lower cost option for "Get-down" ARHS units, but in no way take the notion of inadvertent flight in IMC lightly... my training told me to jump when that happens, and that's why i did exactly that.
Chris

--
Dan, 5J

Agreed, i absolutely love 90 degree trailing flaps on the HP. I have tried the benign spiral in several ships, and the '14 was the only one that i would actually trust to stay slow and stable in rougher air. It does work in other gliders, but it needs to usually be set up properly, and assumes no large turbulence.

I had already descended 2k feet or so completely hands-off and when i bailed out, and the glider was completely stable, exited the cloud upright, and continued flying away from me...couldn't ask for better performance in a dire situation.
Chris

Agreed, i absolutely love 90 degree trailing flaps on the HP. I have tried the benign spiral in several ships, and the '14 was the only one that i would actually trust to stay slow and stable in rougher air. It does work in other gliders, but it needs to usually be set up properly, and assumes no large turbulence.

I had already descended 2k feet or so completely hands-off and when i bailed out, and the glider was completely stable, exited the cloud upright, and continued flying away from me...couldn't ask for better performance in a dire situation.
Chris

Must be surreal watching your glider flying away from you...
From the condition of the glider it looks like it made relatively low energy landing.
Who landed first?

Ramy

On Friday, November 6, 2015 at 10:36:20 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:

From the condition of the glider it looks like it made relatively low energy landing.

Most of the terrain near Mount Washington is below treeline, and 99.99% of it is very densely spaced trees. (Chris landed between two trees spaced 4 feet apart.) My glider has a profoundly stable benign spiral and a Jar-22 'safety cockpit' (more modern gliders have even stronger cockpits). I wear an emergency parachute. I've never made a parachute jump. I'm old enough to have weak leg bones, but I've never had a fracture and I'm not overweight. Breaking a leg on a parachute jump is a non-zero possibility.

If I were in Chris's situation, my first thought would be to stay in the glider until it came to rest in the trees. I'd deploy my PLB while I was waiting to descend (hoping to get a rescue call out before I lost satellite contact in the dense trees), make a Mayday radio call, and tighten my shoulder straps.

I might have a few seconds to pull back the stick, slow down and stall into the trees.

I'd rather have the limited protection of the glider around me, rather than plunge through the tree canopy dangling from a parachute.

I know that you're not suppose to activate a PLB until you've exhausted self-rescue options, but crashing a glider into the trees, I'd expect to need rescue. Being off trail in October in the White Mountains late in the day is a precarious survival situation due to hypothermia, especially if injured and relatively old. Chris's plane flipped upside down after landing. Does anyone carry 50' of spectra cord in a chest pack (to use as a rappel line attached to the parachute harness and anchored to a shoulder strap)?

Am I an idiot?

BTW, following last year's Reno IMC bailout discussion (RAS discussion can change behavior), this year I limited myself to blue sky dry wave days (had two great wave flights with low probability of IMC), but getting stuck in IMC is still a remote possibility. The year before last I dove through a Foehn hole or two (which is exactly how Chris got stuck).

On 11/7/2015 6:42 AM, son_of_flubber wrote:
Am I an idiot?

Good questions, but riding an aircraft into the trees is not the best
option. In the case under discussion the glider /does/ look relatively
undamaged but there's no telling how much it crumpled up before
springing back. I once attempted to render aid to two pilots in what
appeared to be a relatively undamaged RV-4. The only apparent damage was
broken propeller, landing gear, and canopy but, when the firemen pulled
them out of the wreck, it was apparent that they'd died instantly due to
the forward fuselage folding up, smashing them, and springing back.

My flight training has included such gems as, "put it between two
trees". Really? As you said, the forests in northern New England are
pretty dense. Put it between those two trees, and run headlong into the
next one! Never, never, never stall the aircraft into a crash landing.
If you time it perfectly (figure the odds) it may work out well. More
likely you'll plunge nose first between the trees to the ground and that
won't be pretty.

I like your idea of the spectra rope in the chest pack as a let down
line but be sure it won't interfere with pulling the rip cord during a
bailout. Does the plan include some sort of mountaineering or rock
climbing device so that you can let yourself down safely? I know I
couldn't hold onto a thin, slick line with my bare hands.

--
Dan, 5J

At 13:42 07 November 2015, son_of_flubber wrote:

If I were in Chris's situation, my first thought would be to stay in the
glider until it came to rest in the trees. I'd deploy my PLB while I was
waiting to descend (hoping to get a rescue call out before I lost
satellite
contact in the dense trees), make a Mayday radio call, and tighten my
shoulder straps.

I might have a few seconds to pull back the stick, slow down and stall
into the trees.


Many years ago I was unfortunate to witness a fatal accident - a (metal)
glider spun in on finals and went into thick pine trees. When we got there
the glider was hung in the trees without major damage about 6-10ft up,
unfortunately the pilot had been struck on the head by a tree branch that
came through the canopy and did not survive. Very sad as if that branch had
missed him it looked like he would have walked away.

So something to think about - a stalled in landing might be better, but
what happens after you hit the tops is very unpredictable.

https://www.towmeup.com/about/tree-self-rescue/ tree kit. Other trick is carry a container of dental floss so you can pull a rope up to yourself when help arrives. As mentioned put some thought into how you carry stuff.