ILS Rwy 20 at Marion, ILL

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

The distance shown on the profile view from the FAF (JONNY) to the MAP
should be changed from 4.9 NM to 4.57 (bottom-right of the plate).
They leave it to you to work out new timings. At 90 kts, it's a
change from 3:16 to 3:03. There's no information as to *WHY* they
moved the MAP, but if you're still using the old timing, you're going
to drive 15 seconds past the MAP before starting your missed.


They moved the MAP because they moved the runway threshold, runway 2/20 has
been lengthened. The plate still shows the length as 6503 feet but AirNav
shows it to be 8012 feet. I have to wonder why that isn't included in the
NOTAM.



These changes are "WIth Effect Until Further Notice.". That's
probably the reason Jepp decided to issue a new chart. My guess is
that the S-ILS minimums will come back some day, perhaps after some
transmitter or antenna is repaired, and/or some flight testing can be
done. But there's no date scheduled.


I'd expect the S-ILS minima will be back after the glideslope is moved a
quarter mile north.

Thanks for everyone's help. Great source of information.

And, Yes, the FSS briefer read the NOTAM about the unlit towers. They
also read a notam about MSA from Pioneer increasing to 3200 for ILS RWY
17. I then specifically asked if the ILS was in service. The answer
was "yes".

Even when I asked center about the GS problem they were not aware of
it.

Since I was snowed / iced in at Wichita for the next day, I went to the
FSS and Tower and asked them what I had done wrong. I wanted to find
out what I should have done in order to not make this mistake again.

I found that there are two references I will forever use: the biweekly
notams booklet and A/FD. If you want this info from the briefer, you
must ask the FSS briefer for the FDC notams and D notams. They may
have to go get the book, and you may have to wait, but that is the only
way to get the info if you don't have the biweekly notam booklet.

There is a good reference on Avweb on this issue: The Notam Mess:
http://www.avweb.com/news/system/183201-1.html

That article mentioned that Jeppesen does a good job of incorporating
the FDC notams into their charts. If anyone has a Jepp chart of PNC, I
would be interested to know if it has the GS OTS note. This would be
one + for using the jepp charts.

Did the briefer specifically say that the ILS was operational, or did
he just fail to mention the GS OTS notam?

"gregscheetah" wrote in message
oups.com...

And, Yes, the FSS briefer read the NOTAM about the unlit towers. They
also read a notam about MSA from Pioneer increasing to 3200 for ILS RWY
17. I then specifically asked if the ILS was in service. The answer
was "yes".


Well, that is a correct answer albeit incomplete.



Since I was snowed / iced in at Wichita for the next day, I went to the
FSS and Tower and asked them what I had done wrong. I wanted to find
out what I should have done in order to not make this mistake again.

I found that there are two references I will forever use: the biweekly
notams booklet and A/FD. If you want this info from the briefer, you
must ask the FSS briefer for the FDC notams and D notams. They may
have to go get the book, and you may have to wait, but that is the only
way to get the info if you don't have the biweekly notam booklet.


Not true, there is an online version of the biweekly notam booklet:

http://www.faa.gov/ntap/

On 23 Feb 2005 06:56:49 -0800, "gregscheetah"
wrote:

If you want this info from the briefer, you
must ask the FSS briefer for the FDC notams and D notams. They may
have to go get the book, and you may have to wait, but that is the only
way to get the info if you don't have the biweekly notam bookle


A fact that any decent instructor should have covered with you during
your training.

Ya,ya,ya,.....

A fact that any decent instructor should have covered with you during
your training.

This really helps the readers. While I'm sure you recall 100% of
everything you have ever heard, I usually require a little repetition
and practice in order to become proficient at anything.
Congratulations, and thanks for the pointer.

I was thinking that maybe there are others like me, who forgot that if
the FSS briefer tells you the ILS is in service, it may not actually be
in service. I thought maybe this thread would contribute to reminding
others that there are three sources of notams and that duats / fss does
not cover them all.

I can't wait to see what will happen when Lockheed takes over control
of the fss's.

gregscheetah wrote:

DUATS will not provide all the notams.


Seems like it actually does. Perhaps the information was posted after
your flight but the DUATS standard briefing has:

!MWA 12/002 MWA 20 ILS GP OTS

!FDC 5/1241 MWA FI/T WILLIAMSON COUNTY REGIONAL, MARION, IL.
ILS RWY 20, AMDT 11A...
S-ILS MINIMUMS NA.
DISTANCE FAF TO MAP 4.57 NM.
DELETE ALL REFERENCE TO MM.


If anything, DUATS seems to provde too much info and the principal risk
is missing the wheat for the chaff...

I feel much safer with DUATS and the other sources on the Internet than
depending on a carbon based unit reading some of the same info to me
over the phone...

The fact that FDC NOTAMS are not part of a standard briefing, and that
one has to ask a briefer for them, is an extremely important aspect of
instrument flying, and should be hammered into every sudent's head by
his instructor.

I too learned this the hard way, many years ago.. It should not have
been so. It is as basic as minimums on an approach, and very close to
being as important. Arriving at a destination and discovering that an
expected procedure is not authorized is more than inconvenient, it can
be a safety factor.

But instructors get so caught up in stupid stuff like making sure
their students can fly exactly one minute inbound legs in a holding
pattern, they often forget to mention the important things like FDC
notams..




On 23 Feb 2005 11:46:51 -0800, "gregscheetah"
wrote:


Ya,ya,ya,.....

A fact that any decent instructor should have covered with you during
your training.

This really helps the readers. While I'm sure you recall 100% of
everything you have ever heard, I usually require a little repetition
and practice in order to become proficient at anything.
Congratulations, and thanks for the pointer.

I was thinking that maybe there are others like me, who forgot that if
the FSS briefer tells you the ILS is in service, it may not actually be
in service. I thought maybe this thread would contribute to reminding
others that there are three sources of notams and that duats / fss does
not cover them all.

I can't wait to see what will happen when Lockheed takes over control
of the fss's.

wrote in message
...
The fact that FDC NOTAMS are not part of a standard briefing, and that
one has to ask a briefer for them, is an extremely important aspect of
instrument flying, and should be hammered into every sudent's head by
his instructor.

I too learned this the hard way, many years ago.. It should not have
been so. It is as basic as minimums on an approach, and very close to
being as important. Arriving at a destination and discovering that an
expected procedure is not authorized is more than inconvenient, it can
be a safety factor.

But instructors get so caught up in stupid stuff like making sure
their students can fly exactly one minute inbound legs in a holding
pattern, they often forget to mention the important things like FDC
notams..

and its a pretty important aspect to remember for the checkride too.

On 23 Feb 2005 06:56:49 -0800, "gregscheetah"
wrote:

That article mentioned that Jeppesen does a good job of incorporating
the FDC notams into their charts. If anyone has a Jepp chart of PNC, I
would be interested to know if it has the GS OTS note. This would be
one + for using the jepp charts.

FWIW, the Jepp package dated 2/16 (the 25 Feb 05 cycle) has a new
sheet for KMWA with the ILS portion shown as NA.

"gregscheetah" wrote in
oups.com:

That article mentioned that Jeppesen does a good job of incorporating
the FDC notams into their charts. If anyone has a Jepp chart of PNC, I
would be interested to know if it has the GS OTS note. This would be
one + for using the jepp charts.

The Jepp NavData NOTAMS show this:

Marion, ILS Rwy 20, VOR or GPS Rwy 2 and NDB or GPS Rwy 20 procedures
unusable.
ILS Rwy 20 procedure not in database (Rwy2/20 extended - MAP not coincident
with rwy end).

The NavData NOTAMS are issued weekly.

--
Regards,

Stan

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." B. Franklin