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Flight Simulator now being used by flight instructors



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 24th 03, 01:37 AM
Paul Riley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Flight Simulator now being used by flight instructors


"Ed Forsythe" wrote in message
...
Nancy,
Try explaining how *easy* it is to an eminently qualified student who has
washed out of the USAF or USN flight training programs.
--
Happy Flying,
Ed


Hi Ed,

You can add US Army to that as well. Like you, I was also introduced to
"sims" (I use the term loosely G) via the Link Trainer--Blue Canoe?? G--
back in the 50s. Army got some old ones from the USAF--(thanks, I think) G

I hated those things, but they sure did help with procedural items. No way
could you say they taught you to fly--ANYTHING.

Paul


Ads
  #2  
Old October 24th 03, 10:00 AM
Chris Norris
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


snip
Through simming, you could gain some useful IFR procedural training prior to
flight, but don't kid yourself that it would be worth the crippling effect
it will have with respect to primary flight training.

Simming can be a lot of fun and it is an engrossing hobby. It can provide
simulated flight experience to those who cannot participate in the real
thing, but for non-flyers it can hinder or even destroy any chances they
might have at success in subsequent flying training. If you want to learn
to fly in the real world, put the toy away.

snip

Well, I have been simming with MS-FS since the 'green sticks' version
- and two years ago I stepped into the cockpit of a Cessna to begin
some flying lessons for real.

With all those simming hours clocked up I impressed the instructor
with my instant ability able to read the gauges and understand the
information they presented. We had a pretty good discussion in ground
school and he even asked if I had taken lessons before as I seemed to
have the physics and basic principles taken care of.

I just don't agree with your 'crippling effect' comment as I had no
problems flying the Cessna for real and using peripheral vision for
situation awareness (something that's obviously missing when you're
staring at a computer monitor)

So although simming may or may not teach the physical aspects and
feeling of flying it sure does give you a headstart on a lot of the
topics.

At the end of the day it's a simulation, my chair don't move and my
stick don't give me feedback but I am obviously learning from it (and
enjoying it)
  #3  
Old October 24th 03, 07:27 PM
kallijaa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Chris Norris" wrote in message
...

snip
Through simming, you could gain some useful IFR procedural training prior

to
flight, but don't kid yourself that it would be worth the crippling

effect
it will have with respect to primary flight training.

Simming can be a lot of fun and it is an engrossing hobby. It can

provide
simulated flight experience to those who cannot participate in the real
thing, but for non-flyers it can hinder or even destroy any chances they
might have at success in subsequent flying training. If you want to

learn
to fly in the real world, put the toy away.

snip

Well, I have been simming with MS-FS since the 'green sticks' version
- and two years ago I stepped into the cockpit of a Cessna to begin
some flying lessons for real.

With all those simming hours clocked up I impressed the instructor
with my instant ability able to read the gauges and understand the
information they presented. We had a pretty good discussion in ground
school and he even asked if I had taken lessons before as I seemed to
have the physics and basic principles taken care of.

At most private flying schools, most instructors will be sales oriented and
are apt to tickle your ear. They are not likely to chase you away by
telling you that your experience with flight simulation was a mistake that
may cause serious problems. The drill is to sign you up, get your money and
deal with your problems, in that order. That's the business they're in.

I just don't agree with your 'crippling effect' comment as I had no
problems flying the Cessna for real and using peripheral vision for
situation awareness (something that's obviously missing when you're
staring at a computer monitor)

Peripheral vision? If you had persistently relied upon peripheral vision
for situation awareness at a military flying school you would have been a
candidate for elimination. You would have been taught to "keep your head
out of the cockpit and on a swivel." In other words, during contact flight,
your instructor would want to see your head up and in constant motion,
traversing a very wide angle . You would be taught to cross check
instruments quickly and return to the routine of turning your head so that
you could see directly your situation. Good peripheral vision would be a
requirement for your acceptance in the program, but you would not make the
grade relying on it as you suggest.

So although simming may or may not teach the physical aspects and
feeling of flying it sure does give you a headstart on a lot of the
topics.

Reading a few good books will do that, without conditioning you to
constantly face front.

At the end of the day it's a simulation, my chair don't move and my
stick don't give me feedback but I am obviously learning from it (and
enjoying it)


Happy landings.




  #4  
Old October 24th 03, 09:18 PM
Dashii
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"kallijaa" wrote in message
...

"Chris Norris" wrote in message
...

snip
Through simming, you could gain some useful IFR procedural training

prior
to
flight, but don't kid yourself that it would be worth the crippling

effect
it will have with respect to primary flight training.

Simming can be a lot of fun and it is an engrossing hobby. It can

provide
simulated flight experience to those who cannot participate in the real
thing, but for non-flyers it can hinder or even destroy any chances

they
might have at success in subsequent flying training. If you want to

learn
to fly in the real world, put the toy away.

snip

Well, I have been simming with MS-FS since the 'green sticks' version
- and two years ago I stepped into the cockpit of a Cessna to begin
some flying lessons for real.

With all those simming hours clocked up I impressed the instructor
with my instant ability able to read the gauges and understand the
information they presented. We had a pretty good discussion in ground
school and he even asked if I had taken lessons before as I seemed to
have the physics and basic principles taken care of.

At most private flying schools, most instructors will be sales oriented

and
are apt to tickle your ear. They are not likely to chase you away by
telling you that your experience with flight simulation was a mistake that
may cause serious problems. The drill is to sign you up, get your money

and
deal with your problems, in that order. That's the business they're in.

I just don't agree with your 'crippling effect' comment as I had no
problems flying the Cessna for real and using peripheral vision for
situation awareness (something that's obviously missing when you're
staring at a computer monitor)

Peripheral vision? If you had persistently relied upon peripheral vision
for situation awareness at a military flying school you would have been a
candidate for elimination. You would have been taught to "keep your head
out of the cockpit and on a swivel." In other words, during contact

flight,
your instructor would want to see your head up and in constant motion,
traversing a very wide angle . You would be taught to cross check
instruments quickly and return to the routine of turning your head so that
you could see directly your situation. Good peripheral vision would be a
requirement for your acceptance in the program, but you would not make the
grade relying on it as you suggest.


Just like I do in the sim! G

Dashii


  #5  
Old October 24th 03, 09:20 PM
John Clonts
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


S Herman wrote in message
...
In article ,
"kallijaa" wrote:

Simming can be a lot of fun and it is an engrossing hobby. It can

provide
simulated flight experience to those who cannot participate in the real
thing, but for non-flyers it can hinder or even destroy any chances they
might have at success in subsequent flying training. If you want to

learn
to fly in the real world, put the toy away.

Kalijaa


I don't know that it will permanently damage anyone, BUT - I am a new
student (~12 hours). My instructor told me to stop using the flight sim
when I mentioned i had been a fan of them for years. i dont have the
time now any way!

Since the panel ususally fills most of the screen on the sim, your main
clues are the instruments. So, i will agree that it appears that my
penchant for observing the instruments is not helping me learn the
visual and physical clues for performing the basic manuevers. Most of
the manuevers for the PTS seem to be much harder to execute by
instrument!

And of course, i have to add that my real flying has inmproved my flight
simming greatly! :-) just kidding!


Same here. My experience with flight simulators around 1983 was a major
factor in deciding to get my PPL. I was rarely able to land the sim
successfully until after I learned to land the real plane!

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ


  #6  
Old October 25th 03, 12:09 AM
kallijaa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Dashii" wrote in message
...

"kallijaa" wrote in message
...

"Chris Norris" wrote in message
...

snip
Through simming, you could gain some useful IFR procedural training

prior
to
flight, but don't kid yourself that it would be worth the crippling

effect
it will have with respect to primary flight training.

Simming can be a lot of fun and it is an engrossing hobby. It can

provide
simulated flight experience to those who cannot participate in the

real
thing, but for non-flyers it can hinder or even destroy any chances

they
might have at success in subsequent flying training. If you want to

learn
to fly in the real world, put the toy away.
snip

Well, I have been simming with MS-FS since the 'green sticks' version
- and two years ago I stepped into the cockpit of a Cessna to begin
some flying lessons for real.

With all those simming hours clocked up I impressed the instructor
with my instant ability able to read the gauges and understand the
information they presented. We had a pretty good discussion in ground
school and he even asked if I had taken lessons before as I seemed to
have the physics and basic principles taken care of.

At most private flying schools, most instructors will be sales oriented

and
are apt to tickle your ear. They are not likely to chase you away by
telling you that your experience with flight simulation was a mistake

that
may cause serious problems. The drill is to sign you up, get your money

and
deal with your problems, in that order. That's the business they're in.

I just don't agree with your 'crippling effect' comment as I had no
problems flying the Cessna for real and using peripheral vision for
situation awareness (something that's obviously missing when you're
staring at a computer monitor)

Peripheral vision? If you had persistently relied upon peripheral

vision
for situation awareness at a military flying school you would have been

a
candidate for elimination. You would have been taught to "keep your

head
out of the cockpit and on a swivel." In other words, during contact

flight,
your instructor would want to see your head up and in constant motion,
traversing a very wide angle . You would be taught to cross check
instruments quickly and return to the routine of turning your head so

that
you could see directly your situation. Good peripheral vision would be

a
requirement for your acceptance in the program, but you would not make

the
grade relying on it as you suggest.


Just like I do in the sim! G

Dashii

Oh, really? I recall you describing how you use "outside views." How do
you access those outside views and where are your eyes focused during that
process? Let me guess: You switch to outside view using your keyboard or a
switch on your flight controls. Am I getting warm? Then you look at those
outside views on the same display used to view the instrument panel and the
slim strip of the sim world atop. Warmer?

By that process you are training your head to habitually remain stationary
and your eyes to look forward at all times. Those are the kind of habits
that hinder progress in flight training.

Kalijaa


  #7  
Old October 25th 03, 12:39 AM
flightsimcfi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


look folks, I am a CFI, and I am a flight sim guy.

Learning to fly involves learning a huge volume of information. A
flight simulator, when properly used, can help a student to learn some
of this information.

I encourage my students to try things in the simulator, to practice
lessons, to practice procedures, to fly cross countries. The ones that
do this end up saving time and money in the real plane.

The simulator in your PC is not exactly the same as the real plane. But
neither is chair flying, or reading a book about flying, or watching a
King Schools video. MS flight simulator is a training tool, nothing
more, nothing less.

I saved tons of time and money because I flew flight simulators when
growing up (back in the Apple ][e days). I know it works, I also know I
learned bad habits, but when I started to learn to fly the real thing, I
quickly learned what transferred directly from simming and what didn't,
thanks to my CFI.

For those of you that want more out the window view and less panel, try
seeing what the "W" key does. Also the +/- keys for zooming.

For those of you that want to fly their cross countries more quickly in
the simulator, accelerate time, or use the "Y" key to activate Slew mode
so you can move the plane around instead of flying it around. This is a
nice way to view the scenery.

Please also consider hitting "Shift-Backspace" and "Shift-Enter" to
raise and lower your seat when in the cockpit.

For you CFI's who worry that your students will build bad habits.....
you are right. Pilots build bad habits when they fly simulators, but
they also build bad habits when they fly real airplanes. Pilots learn
bad habits when they read newsgroup articles, and they learn bad habits
when they read magazines about flying.

The only way to avoid bad habits is to teach them early on to never stop
learning, and to never stop being vigiliant of their own habits and
behaviors.

I also tell students to get a yoke, and if they can afford it, rudder
pedals.
  #8  
Old October 25th 03, 02:12 AM
Dashii
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


From: "kallijaa"
Subject: Flight Simulator now being used by flight instructors
Date: Friday, October 24, 2003 3:54 PM


"Dashii" wrote in message
...

"kallijaa" wrote in message
...

"Ed Forsythe" wrote in message
...
Kallijaa,
I suspect that you were trolling and you painted yourself into a

corner

Now you are desperately attempting to extricate yourself. Don't let

the
facts confuse you - hang in there!
--
Happy Flying,
Ed


I'm quite comfortable in my corner, your suspicions not withstanding.

If you read my first post to this thread, you will find that I fully
acknowledged the contributions of flight simulators since the beginning

of
instrument flying. Your experience with Link Trainers might be similar

to
mine and my true appreciation of them might agree with yours. The

Links
were roundly hated, but grudgingly used by flying students to learn and
practice IFR procedures. Their main asset was the associated plotting
tables that enabled them to fly virtual Loop and Adcock (Low Frequency)
radio ranges while being monitored by a flight instructor. The rocking

and
tilting motions produced by the Link's pneumatic systems were laughable

and
the Trainers had nothing to do with contact flying. Students pilots

weren't
allowed to come near the dreadful little crates until they were found to

be
sufficiently proficient in the air.

The idea that a fledgling will profit from simulation prior to gaining

such
proficiency is absurd. Instead, it will have the opposite effect.

Simmers
are training themselves to do precisely what they shouldn't when flying

an
airplane under contact conditions. One of the most difficult habits to
break in a new student is the natural tendency to stare straight ahead
and/or at the instrument panel. Instructors must teach students to keep
their heads "out of the cockpit and on a swivel," in order to know where
they are, to appreciate in full the attitude of their aircraft and to

keep
clear of danger in the form of other aircraft and obstructions.


Jeez, I thought that I had good situational awareness (SA) from "flying"

the
sims because visibility is so poor that you must use your outside views.

Try
flying a combat sim and see how quickly you are shot down if you don't

have
good SA.

Dashii

How well you plead my cause. While playing your combat game, you access
outside views with your fingers while staring straight ahead. In the air,
it doesn't work that-a-way.


You are out of touch with modern flight simming.

A lot of simmers now have several monitors that not only display the
left/right view but the left/right up, top/down, front/back, up/down views.

There is also an IR device that tracks the outside views as you move your
head.

Many like myself also have top quality yokes and rudder pedals/brakes, mine
is a Precision Flight Control system.

I also use GoFlight instruments.

Flying airplanes is a hobby much like sailing, bicycling, hang gliding,
mountain climbing, flight simming, swimming, etc.

There are professional pilots just like there are professional sailors,
cyclists, etc.

Get it out of your head that you are somehow elite and seperate from someone
that doesn't fly airplanes, you are not.

Anyone with several thousand dollars to spend can get a private pilot
certificate.

I may and then again I may not.

Let the paint dry and you may yet get out of that corner! G

Dashii



  #9  
Old October 25th 03, 04:23 AM
kallijaa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"flightsimcfi" wrote in message
news:[email protected]_s04...

look folks, I am a CFI, and I am a flight sim guy.

Learning to fly involves learning a huge volume of information. A
flight simulator, when properly used, can help a student to learn some
of this information.

I encourage my students to try things in the simulator, to practice
lessons, to practice procedures, to fly cross countries. The ones that
do this end up saving time and money in the real plane.

The simulator in your PC is not exactly the same as the real plane. But
neither is chair flying, or reading a book about flying, or watching a
King Schools video. MS flight simulator is a training tool, nothing
more, nothing less.

I saved tons of time and money because I flew flight simulators when
growing up (back in the Apple ][e days). I know it works, I also know I
learned bad habits, but when I started to learn to fly the real thing, I
quickly learned what transferred directly from simming and what didn't,
thanks to my CFI.

For those of you that want more out the window view and less panel, try
seeing what the "W" key does. Also the +/- keys for zooming.

For those of you that want to fly their cross countries more quickly in
the simulator, accelerate time, or use the "Y" key to activate Slew mode
so you can move the plane around instead of flying it around. This is a
nice way to view the scenery.

Please also consider hitting "Shift-Backspace" and "Shift-Enter" to
raise and lower your seat when in the cockpit.

For you CFI's who worry that your students will build bad habits.....
you are right. Pilots build bad habits when they fly simulators, but
they also build bad habits when they fly real airplanes. Pilots learn
bad habits when they read newsgroup articles, and they learn bad habits
when they read magazines about flying.

The only way to avoid bad habits is to teach them early on to never stop
learning, and to never stop being vigiliant of their own habits and
behaviors.

I also tell students to get a yoke, and if they can afford it, rudder
pedals.


I agree in some parts, disagree in others. There's room for that. As a
CFI, you have to deal with the current pool of flying students as they
evolve. When they become CFIs the process will be complete. Good or bad?


  #10  
Old October 25th 03, 04:51 AM
kallijaa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Dashii" wrote in message
...

From: "kallijaa"
Subject: Flight Simulator now being used by flight instructors
Date: Friday, October 24, 2003 3:54 PM


"Dashii" wrote in message
...

"kallijaa" wrote in message
...

"Ed Forsythe" wrote in message
...
Kallijaa,
I suspect that you were trolling and you painted yourself into a

corner

Now you are desperately attempting to extricate yourself. Don't let

the
facts confuse you - hang in there!
--
Happy Flying,
Ed

I'm quite comfortable in my corner, your suspicions not withstanding.

If you read my first post to this thread, you will find that I fully
acknowledged the contributions of flight simulators since the

beginning
of
instrument flying. Your experience with Link Trainers might be similar

to
mine and my true appreciation of them might agree with yours. The

Links
were roundly hated, but grudgingly used by flying students to learn

and
practice IFR procedures. Their main asset was the associated plotting
tables that enabled them to fly virtual Loop and Adcock (Low

Frequency)
radio ranges while being monitored by a flight instructor. The

rocking
and
tilting motions produced by the Link's pneumatic systems were

laughable
and
the Trainers had nothing to do with contact flying. Students pilots

weren't
allowed to come near the dreadful little crates until they were found

to
be
sufficiently proficient in the air.

The idea that a fledgling will profit from simulation prior to gaining

such
proficiency is absurd. Instead, it will have the opposite effect.

Simmers
are training themselves to do precisely what they shouldn't when

flying
an
airplane under contact conditions. One of the most difficult habits

to
break in a new student is the natural tendency to stare straight ahead
and/or at the instrument panel. Instructors must teach students to

keep
their heads "out of the cockpit and on a swivel," in order to know

where
they are, to appreciate in full the attitude of their aircraft and to

keep
clear of danger in the form of other aircraft and obstructions.


Jeez, I thought that I had good situational awareness (SA) from "flying"

the
sims because visibility is so poor that you must use your outside views.

Try
flying a combat sim and see how quickly you are shot down if you don't

have
good SA.

Dashii

How well you plead my cause. While playing your combat game, you access
outside views with your fingers while staring straight ahead. In the

air,
it doesn't work that-a-way.


You are out of touch with modern flight simming.

Well, I haven't upgraded to FS9 and my crappy old computer doesn't sport a
2Ghz cpu, so maybe.

A lot of simmers now have several monitors that not only display the
left/right view but the left/right up, top/down, front/back, up/down

views.

A welcome improvement enjoyed by an insignificant few.

There is also an IR device that tracks the outside views as you move your
head.

I also like the germ of that idea

Many like myself also have top quality yokes and rudder pedals/brakes,

mine
is a Precision Flight Control system.

I also use GoFlight instruments.

How delightful for you, and how tiresome for the rest of us.

Flying airplanes is a hobby much like sailing, bicycling, hang gliding,
mountain climbing, flight simming, swimming, etc.

There are professional pilots just like there are professional sailors,
cyclists, etc.

Tell your CFI that you are approaching flight as a hobby, and so are
unconcerned with flight safety.

Get it out of your head that you are somehow elite and seperate from

someone
that doesn't fly airplanes, you are not.

Alas, your teeming with a lot of news about fancy personal flight
simulators, but lack omniscience.

Anyone with several thousand dollars to spend can get a private pilot
certificate.

Thanks for the revealing insight. Counterfeit certificates are less
expensive and perhaps your only option.

I may and then again I may not.

Milton Friedman would be proud.

Let the paint dry and you may yet get out of that corner! G

Dashii

Curses!! Foiled again by Dashii!!!.



 




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