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#171
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On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 12:55:05 -0400, "George Z. Bush"
wrote: "Ed Rasimus" wrote in message .. . First, let's note that I said or wrote none of which "George Z. Bush" has posted here below the attibution header! (Snip) How about considering that we are quick to disavow the outrageous behavior of a handful of our sadistic jailers as being representative of us as a nation, but we deny the Iraqis the same right to disavow the existence of a single artillery shell of dubious age filled with Sarin as being representative of an arsenal of WMDs they would have used on us if they had existed. One sadistic jailer doesn't mean that all of our jailers are sadistic any more than one Sarin-filled artillery shell means that all of the artillery shells the Iraqis had were filled with Sarin. It took us a whole year to find (or 'fess up to) one of each. George Z. By your rationale the only way a nation possesses WMD is if ALL of their weapons fit the class? We've found one Sarin filled shell in a country the size of California. Saddam had twelve years of experience in hiding WMD from UN inspectors. He had a couple of years of warning regarding build-up to invasion. He had almost a year after expelling the UN inspectors to dismantle, export, hide or decommission WMDs. Is Sarin a chemical weapon? Would the components of a binary weapon by a chemical weapon if they were held in two separate locations? Is a biological weapon only a biological weapon when it is employed, otherwise it's just a case of the sniffles? I baby-sat a B-61 Y-1 at 345KT was that a WMD? If we only had Fat Man and Little Boy (which is all we had) and then we dropped them on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, did we then no longer have WMD? Or, since those two weapons were only 20-25KT were they not even WMD at all? The relationship between the jailers and WMD isn't a very rational argument. How much Sarin will you allow to be deployed in New York City before you take offense? Would it be more acceptable to use it in Jerusalem? Would it be alright to spread three liters of Sarin in Kuwait City? How many WMD rounds does it take to equal possession of WMD in your convoluted logic? Would two be better than one? Or will you hold out for exclusive WMD rounds and no conventional? Then, one conventional round would prove the non-existance of WMD, despite the other rounds? C'mon George, confess that you didn't think it through when you wrote that/ Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" Smithsonian Institution Press ISBN #1-58834-103-8 |
#172
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#173
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"George Z. Bush" wrote in message ... "Ed Rasimus" wrote in message ... (Snip) How about considering that we are quick to disavow the outrageous behavior of a handful of our sadistic jailers as being representative of us as a nation, but we deny the Iraqis the same right to disavow the existence of a single artillery shell of dubious age filled with Sarin as being representative of an arsenal of WMDs they would have used on us if they had existed. Bad logic. We never declared, as part of a ceasefire agreement from the *last* conflict, that we had no individuals who could/would commit criminal acts in our military services. And you seem to be forgetting the other round reported (mustard), the hiding of equipment and documents related to WMD development (as reported by Kay in his report), the continuing development work on ricin (also testified to by Kay), etc.... One sadistic jailer doesn't mean that all of our jailers are sadistic any more than one Sarin-filled artillery shell means that all of the artillery shells the Iraqis had were filled with Sarin. It took us a whole year to find (or 'fess up to) one of each. You are the only ignoramus who has claimed that "all of the artillery shells the Iraqis had were filled with Sarin". To be completely honest (something you are, I know, loathe to be), AFAIK we have not found *any* shells "filled with Sarin". What we have found is the remains of one shell that was filled with the binary components of sarin (another wee problem, since the Iraqis never acknowledged having *any* such shells in their possession, at *any* time--which is another violation...), evidence of their attempting to hide equipment, documents, and cultures related to bio/chemical warfare programs, a continuing ricin development effort, etc. But I am quite sure that if it suits your purpose (being the damning of GWB at all costs, of course), you will soon assign the "all of the artillery shells" quote to *him* at the nearest opportunity--who cares if it is accurate, right? Just as you obviously don't care about accuracy in regards to your "single artillery shell...filled with Sarin" statement, eh? Brooks George Z. |
#174
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In article , Ed Rasimus
wrote: On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 12:55:05 -0400, "George Z. Bush" wrote: "Ed Rasimus" wrote in message .. . By your rationale the only way a nation possesses WMD is if ALL of their weapons fit the class? We've found one Sarin filled shell in a country the size of California. Saddam had twelve years of experience in hiding WMD from UN inspectors. He had a couple of years of warning regarding build-up to invasion. He had almost a year after expelling the UN inspectors to dismantle, export, hide or decommission WMDs. Is Sarin a chemical weapon? Would the components of a binary weapon by a chemical weapon if they were held in two separate locations? Under the Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC), the Australia Group agreements, and the US Militarily Critical Technologies list, unitary sarin is definitely a chemical weapon, as are the phosphofluoro precursors. The latter are in the same Class I category as GB (Sarin). Plain isopropanol and elemental sulfur, the basic second components of GB and VX, are only "dual use" by a generous interpretation -- isopropanol is common rubbing alcohol. A better binary precursor (OPA) mixes diisopropylamine with isopropanol; if there is at least 30% diisopropylamine, the mixture is considered a dual use material not explicitly classifed by the Australia Group. Is a biological weapon only a biological weapon when it is employed, otherwise it's just a case of the sniffles? I would say that it has to be weaponized and associated with a plausible disposal system. The same botulinus toxin used in medical Botox is a weapon when in much larger quantities and associated with a dispersion system. I baby-sat a B-61 Y-1 at 345KT was that a WMD? If we only had Fat Man and Little Boy (which is all we had) and then we dropped them on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, did we then no longer have WMD? Or, since those two weapons were only 20-25KT were they not even WMD at all? For simplicity, any nuclear explosive should be considered WMD. That being said, PGMs may be as or more useful for a given application as were tactical nuclear weapons with much less accurate delivery. The relationship between the jailers and WMD isn't a very rational argument. How much Sarin will you allow to be deployed in New York City before you take offense? Let me speak to the more general case of cholinesterase inhibitors ("nerve gasses"). Diisopropyl fluorophosphate was one of the first such agents considered by the US, but also has perfectly legitimate applications in opthalmology. How much does the local distributor have in its warehouse? I don't know. Research laboratories may legitimately have small quantities of nerve agent precursors or actual agents. Increasingly, there are licensing and quantity restrictions. Certainly, any laboratory that needs to check detectors needs some quantity, and a reference laboratory that confirms particular agents will need samples. Quantity limits on biological toxins are much more stringent. Some sample regulations based on Federal regulations, this example from the University of Pennsylvania: The medical use of toxins for patient treatment is exempt. The following select agent toxins are exempt if the aggregate amount under the control of one principal investigator does not, at any time, exceed: - 0.5 mg of Botulinum neurotoxins - 5 mg of Staphylococcal enterotoxins - 100 mg of abrin, Clostridium perfringens epsilon toxin, conotoxin, ricin, saxitoxin, shigatoxin, shiga-like ribosome inactivating protein, and tetrodotoxin - 1,000 mg of diacetoxyscirpenol and T-2 toxin The following select agent organisms or toxins are also exempt: - Any agent or toxin that is in its naturally occurring environment provided it has not been intentionally introduced, cultivated, collected, or otherwise extracted from its natural source. - Non-viable select agent organisms or nonfunctional toxins. - The vaccine strains of Junin virus (Candid #1), Rift Valley fever virus (MP-12), Venezuelan Equine encephalitis virus vaccine strain TC-83 So, the bottom line is that an acceptable quantity is greater than zero. Would it be more acceptable to use it in Jerusalem? Would it be alright to spread three liters of Sarin in Kuwait City? How many WMD rounds does it take to equal possession of WMD in your convoluted logic? Would two be better than one? Or will you hold out for exclusive WMD rounds and no conventional? Then, one conventional round would prove the non-existance of WMD, despite the other rounds? Let us focus on the "mass" in mass destruction. Aside from the aspect of fear (personally, I'd far rather die of sarin than napalm), to be a WMD, the weapons have to be available in militarily significant quantity, such that they cause more destruction/effect than an equivalent quantity of conventional weapons. I'm certainly willing to bend this rule to include active R&D or manufacturing programs. The rule of thumb for a militarily significant amount of G-agents is in the tons. Yes, with skilled dispersion, a chemical weapon can cause far more casualties than conventional weapons. In our one terrorist example, compared to the massive quantities used in WWI, Aum Shinryo managed about a dozen deaths. Casualties numbered in the hundreds to low thousands, but a significant proportion of cases were trauma caused by a panicking crowd, or psychosomatic. Several Claymore mines on a subway platform would almost certainly cause more casualties. |
#175
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"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message ... One shell, apparently dated pre-1991 - this isn't a clear and present danger. (The production facility for it would be - no signs so far) Didn't the Iraqis claim they never had any Sarin at all? If that's the case, doesn't the presence of even one shell prove they did not abide by the 1991 agreement? Note also that at one point there was a declared "flypaper strategy" of using Iraq as bait to draw in and destroy terrorists - That seems to be happening now. |
#176
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So you attack fundamentalist Islam by invading one of the more secular
states in the Middle East? Does not compute... For the US: 1)Iraq is tactical target 2)Saudi Kingdom is strategic target 3)Egypt is the trophy. Unfortunately US planners forgat something that some others might have different great game plans (like following): 1)Iraq is nothing 2)Saudi Kingdom is tactical target 3)Iran and Turkey are strategic targets 4)USA is the trophy |
#177
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In message . net,
Steven P. McNicoll writes "Paul J. Adam" wrote in message ... One shell, apparently dated pre-1991 - this isn't a clear and present danger. (The production facility for it would be - no signs so far) Didn't the Iraqis claim they never had any Sarin at all? No, they claimed that they'd had a fair amount pre-1991 and had since destroyed almost all of it, apart from some odds and ends that had gone adrift in the course of two wars, a short sharp shower of ****e and a prolonged game of hide-the-programs. The inspectors who audited their claims found some discrepancies, like the alleged binary shell R&D program that *may* have produced this round and thirty to forty like it, for further study: however, the further study was pre-empted. If that's the case, doesn't the presence of even one shell prove they did not abide by the 1991 agreement? The US and UK still turn up chemical and (occasionally in the US) biological munitions here and there - does that prove we're in violation of treaties? Or just that accounting down to individual rounds is a tricky process? Significant quantities of sarin are measured in the hundreds of kilos, at least, for military effects. I'd be looking for a significant and recent stockpile, or better yet a recent production program. One shell, over a decade old, whose users seem to have had little idea what it was, isn't particularly persuasive that there was a significant threat. -- He thinks too much: such men are dangerous. Julius Caesar I:2 Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk |
#178
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In message , Ed Rasimus
writes How many WMD rounds does it take to equal possession of WMD in your convoluted logic? To quote something I wrote earlier... Let's - for the sake of simplicity - assume the munitions and facilities have a trustworthy date stamp, however ascertained. Hard to do, but it simplifies the terms. 1998 and earlier, I'm willing to accept a few (call it three, offhand) "WME stockpiles" that are - for a rule of thumb - a pallet or less of shells, 122mm rockets, or precursors each. 1991 or earlier, I'd raise the bar quite a lot higher, because they prepared to fight a defensive war and then lost it massively and that's where large amounts of kit go missing. (We're still occasionally digging up buried caches of 1940s No. 76 grenades here in the UK, which is a problem because they're beer bottles filled with a benzene, rubber and white phosphorous mixture - not nice to accidentally put a spade through one) Post-1998, "a pallet" of filled basic munitions or of filler for them, or a single weapon that was a significant advance on their previous capability, would be conclusive proof. Less than that would be a very unwelcome surprise, though not decisive (we know they *wanted* to keep their programs going, but the claim was that the programs existed and were an immediate threat) Opinion, assayed at $0.02 exact. -- He thinks too much: such men are dangerous. Julius Caesar I:2 Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk |
#179
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In article . net,
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote: "Paul J. Adam" wrote in message ... One shell, apparently dated pre-1991 - this isn't a clear and present danger. (The production facility for it would be - no signs so far) Didn't the Iraqis claim they never had any Sarin at all? If that's the case, doesn't the presence of even one shell prove they did not abide by the 1991 agreement? They supposedly only did "research" on binary sarin rounds, and that *after* 1991. The existence of this round, at *all*, shows that they weren't complying with their obligations by informing the UN of the research program. -- cirby at cfl.rr.com Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations. Slam on brakes accordingly. |
#180
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In article ,
"Paul J. Adam" wrote: Let's - for the sake of simplicity - assume the munitions and facilities have a trustworthy date stamp, however ascertained. Hard to do, but it simplifies the terms. 1998 and earlier, I'm willing to accept a few (call it three, offhand) "WME stockpiles" that are - for a rule of thumb - a pallet or less of shells, 122mm rockets, or precursors each. ....that could be found, accidentally, by militias? When there are *millions* of similar pallets of conventional weapons floating around in Iraq right now? The math is way against you here. Literally millions-to-one odds. On the other hand, if there were a lot of unreported and uncatalogued chemical weapons in the mix, you'd have a much better chance of someone turning up one or two out of a random ammo dump. Which is what seems to have happened. -- cirby at cfl.rr.com Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations. Slam on brakes accordingly. |
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