If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
#1
|
|||
|
|||
T-6 accident
This is the one I mean to post Dudley. Was having some trouble with Youtube
due to a plug-in I think.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7eYhlm9FJ8 |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
T-6 accident
On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:12:31 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
This is the one I mean to post Dudley. Was having some trouble with Youtube due to a plug-in I think.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7eYhlm9FJ8 Can you assess the problem? -- Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either! |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
T-6 accident
WJRFlyBoy wrote in
: On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:12:31 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote: This is the one I mean to post Dudley. Was having some trouble with Youtube due to a plug-in I think.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7eYhlm9FJ8 Can you assess the problem? What, with my browser or the accident? The T-6 passed 90 deg (and even earlier) with his nose below the horizon. He could have rolled back and saved it at that point, but he continued around in the now awkward position of having to prevent further altitude loss with excessive neg G which slowed him considerably and further skewed the airplane's. The exit half was a classic dish. Everybody does 'em sometimes.... Trick is to recognise a roll that's going to produce one early enough to abandon it. This guy didn't. The You tube extension add-on, I have no idea, but it's made a mess out of my youtube fun! Bertie |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
T-6 accident
On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 13:51:53 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote: WJRFlyBoy wrote in : On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:12:31 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote: This is the one I mean to post Dudley. Was having some trouble with Youtube due to a plug-in I think.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7eYhlm9FJ8 Can you assess the problem? What, with my browser or the accident? The T-6 passed 90 deg (and even earlier) with his nose below the horizon. He could have rolled back and saved it at that point, but he continued around in the now awkward position of having to prevent further altitude loss with excessive neg G which slowed him considerably and further skewed the airplane's. The exit half was a classic dish. Everybody does 'em sometimes.... Trick is to recognise a roll that's going to produce one early enough to abandon it. This guy didn't. The You tube extension add-on, I have no idea, but it's made a mess out of my youtube fun! Bertie Bertie I made some comments on another post on this accident which was before the video of the accident was posted. I have looked at the strip probably 50 times and can't come up with what I believe is a accurate analysis of what all happened and why. 1. Bird was in a shallow dive and picking up airspeed, above cruise, when strip starts. This is a good entry technique. 2. Bird bottomed out and nose was raised above the horizon before roll started. Again good technique. 3. After first 90 degrees of roll nose had dropped to at least level or very slightly nose down. 4. After 180 degrees of roll nose was definitely below the horizon. Not in a dive but shallow enough that continuing roll rate should have allowed completion of roll before bird hitting ground. 5. After 270 degrees of roll bird made almost a square corner port turn and shortly after hit the ground almost flat 90 degrees off line of flight. 6. It did not look to me like he dished out but I don't know why the bird made the rapid 90 degree turn off line of flight. My experience with dish out of roll, in T-6, bird ended up at max 30 degrees off line of flight. 7. Assuming video strip was real time, the roll was a pretty rapid slow roll. My slow rolls were about half the roll rate of this bird. 8.Roll was against torque, which would have slowed roll down without extra aileron. 9.Either you or Dudley talked about G forces slowing bird down. I didn't see any large angle of attack which would be required to slow bird down. 10. Looking at bird in video, I didn't see any reduction in airspeed until about the time it made the 90 degree turn before impact. Lots of comments but can't give a hard analysis of what happened from start to finish. Big John |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
T-6 accident
"Big John" wrote in message ... On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 13:51:53 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote: WJRFlyBoy wrote in t: On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:12:31 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote: This is the one I mean to post Dudley. Was having some trouble with Youtube due to a plug-in I think.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7eYhlm9FJ8 Can you assess the problem? What, with my browser or the accident? The T-6 passed 90 deg (and even earlier) with his nose below the horizon. He could have rolled back and saved it at that point, but he continued around in the now awkward position of having to prevent further altitude loss with excessive neg G which slowed him considerably and further skewed the airplane's. The exit half was a classic dish. Everybody does 'em sometimes.... Trick is to recognise a roll that's going to produce one early enough to abandon it. This guy didn't. The You tube extension add-on, I have no idea, but it's made a mess out of my youtube fun! Bertie Bertie I made some comments on another post on this accident which was before the video of the accident was posted. I have looked at the strip probably 50 times and can't come up with what I believe is a accurate analysis of what all happened and why. 1. Bird was in a shallow dive and picking up airspeed, above cruise, when strip starts. This is a good entry technique. 2. Bird bottomed out and nose was raised above the horizon before roll started. Again good technique. 3. After first 90 degrees of roll nose had dropped to at least level or very slightly nose down. 4. After 180 degrees of roll nose was definitely below the horizon. Not in a dive but shallow enough that continuing roll rate should have allowed completion of roll before bird hitting ground. 5. After 270 degrees of roll bird made almost a square corner port turn and shortly after hit the ground almost flat 90 degrees off line of flight. Is there any evidence that he fed in pro-roll rudder in addition to some elevator? That would explain both the nose dropping during the roll and the rather abrupt course change. 6. It did not look to me like he dished out but I don't know why the bird made the rapid 90 degree turn off line of flight. My experience with dish out of roll, in T-6, bird ended up at max 30 degrees off line of flight. 7. Assuming video strip was real time, the roll was a pretty rapid slow roll. My slow rolls were about half the roll rate of this bird. 8.Roll was against torque, which would have slowed roll down without extra aileron. 9.Either you or Dudley talked about G forces slowing bird down. I didn't see any large angle of attack which would be required to slow bird down. 10. Looking at bird in video, I didn't see any reduction in airspeed until about the time it made the 90 degree turn before impact. Lots of comments but can't give a hard analysis of what happened from start to finish. Big John |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
T-6 accident
"Kyle Boatright" wrote in
: "Big John" wrote in message ... On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 13:51:53 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote: WJRFlyBoy wrote in : On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:12:31 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote: This is the one I mean to post Dudley. Was having some trouble with Youtube due to a plug-in I think.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7eYhlm9FJ8 Can you assess the problem? What, with my browser or the accident? The T-6 passed 90 deg (and even earlier) with his nose below the horizon. He could have rolled back and saved it at that point, but he continued around in the now awkward position of having to prevent further altitude loss with excessive neg G which slowed him considerably and further skewed the airplane's. The exit half was a classic dish. Everybody does 'em sometimes.... Trick is to recognise a roll that's going to produce one early enough to abandon it. This guy didn't. The You tube extension add-on, I have no idea, but it's made a mess out of my youtube fun! Bertie Bertie I made some comments on another post on this accident which was before the video of the accident was posted. I have looked at the strip probably 50 times and can't come up with what I believe is a accurate analysis of what all happened and why. 1. Bird was in a shallow dive and picking up airspeed, above cruise, when strip starts. This is a good entry technique. 2. Bird bottomed out and nose was raised above the horizon before roll started. Again good technique. 3. After first 90 degrees of roll nose had dropped to at least level or very slightly nose down. 4. After 180 degrees of roll nose was definitely below the horizon. Not in a dive but shallow enough that continuing roll rate should have allowed completion of roll before bird hitting ground. 5. After 270 degrees of roll bird made almost a square corner port turn and shortly after hit the ground almost flat 90 degrees off line of flight. Is there any evidence that he fed in pro-roll rudder in addition to some elevator? That would explain both the nose dropping during the roll and the rather abrupt course change. doubt it or he would have turned into the ground pretty quickish. just not enough top rudder would be my guess. Bertie |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
T-6 accident
Big John wrote in
: On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 13:51:53 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote: WJRFlyBoy wrote in t: On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:12:31 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote: This is the one I mean to post Dudley. Was having some trouble with Youtube due to a plug-in I think.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7eYhlm9FJ8 Can you assess the problem? What, with my browser or the accident? The T-6 passed 90 deg (and even earlier) with his nose below the horizon. He could have rolled back and saved it at that point, but he continued around in the now awkward position of having to prevent further altitude loss with excessive neg G which slowed him considerably and further skewed the airplane's. The exit half was a classic dish. Everybody does 'em sometimes.... Trick is to recognise a roll that's going to produce one early enough to abandon it. This guy didn't. The You tube extension add-on, I have no idea, but it's made a mess out of my youtube fun! Bertie Bertie I made some comments on another post on this accident which was before the video of the accident was posted. I have looked at the strip probably 50 times and can't come up with what I believe is a accurate analysis of what all happened and why. 1. Bird was in a shallow dive and picking up airspeed, above cruise, when strip starts. This is a good entry technique. 2. Bird bottomed out and nose was raised above the horizon before roll started. Again good technique. 3. After first 90 degrees of roll nose had dropped to at least level or very slightly nose down. 4. After 180 degrees of roll nose was definitely below the horizon. Not in a dive but shallow enough that continuing roll rate should have allowed completion of roll before bird hitting ground. 5. After 270 degrees of roll bird made almost a square corner port turn and shortly after hit the ground almost flat 90 degrees off line of flight. 6. It did not look to me like he dished out but I don't know why the bird made the rapid 90 degree turn off line of flight. My experience with dish out of roll, in T-6, bird ended up at max 30 degrees off line of flight. 7. Assuming video strip was real time, the roll was a pretty rapid slow roll. My slow rolls were about half the roll rate of this bird. 8.Roll was against torque, which would have slowed roll down without extra aileron. 9.Either you or Dudley talked about G forces slowing bird down. I didn't see any large angle of attack which would be required to slow bird down. 10. Looking at bird in video, I didn't see any reduction in airspeed until about the time it made the 90 degree turn before impact. Lots of comments but can't give a hard analysis of what happened from start to finish. OK, it's kind of hard to see it in relation to he horizon for a lot of the roll. My own feeling is the nose was down too far during the first quarter and then he was well to nose low during the inverted portion and knew it, pushed hard and drew some drag, then panicked and tried to get out with hard top rudder too early and pulled hard as soon as he passed 90 deg roll on the back side. It's been a while, but it;s a classic student panic recovery from a botched roll. Bertie |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
T-6 accident
On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 14:22:58 -0600, Big John
wrote: On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 13:51:53 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote: WJRFlyBoy wrote in t: On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:12:31 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote: This is the one I mean to post Dudley. Was having some trouble with Youtube due to a plug-in I think.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7eYhlm9FJ8 Can you assess the problem? What, with my browser or the accident? The T-6 passed 90 deg (and even earlier) with his nose below the horizon. He could have rolled back and saved it at that point, but he continued around in the now awkward position of having to prevent further altitude loss with excessive neg G which slowed him considerably and further skewed the airplane's. The exit half was a classic dish. Everybody does 'em sometimes.... Trick is to recognise a roll that's going to produce one early enough to abandon it. This guy didn't. The You tube extension add-on, I have no idea, but it's made a mess out of my youtube fun! Bertie Bertie I made some comments on another post on this accident which was before the video of the accident was posted. I have looked at the strip probably 50 times and can't come up with what I believe is a accurate analysis of what all happened and why. 1. Bird was in a shallow dive and picking up airspeed, above cruise, when strip starts. This is a good entry technique. 2. Bird bottomed out and nose was raised above the horizon before roll started. Again good technique. 3. After first 90 degrees of roll nose had dropped to at least level or very slightly nose down. 4. After 180 degrees of roll nose was definitely below the horizon. Not in a dive but shallow enough that continuing roll rate should have allowed completion of roll before bird hitting ground. 5. After 270 degrees of roll bird made almost a square corner port turn and shortly after hit the ground almost flat 90 degrees off line of flight. 6. It did not look to me like he dished out but I don't know why the bird made the rapid 90 degree turn off line of flight. My experience with dish out of roll, in T-6, bird ended up at max 30 degrees off line of flight. 7. Assuming video strip was real time, the roll was a pretty rapid slow roll. My slow rolls were about half the roll rate of this bird. 8.Roll was against torque, which would have slowed roll down without extra aileron. 9.Either you or Dudley talked about G forces slowing bird down. I didn't see any large angle of attack which would be required to slow bird down. 10. Looking at bird in video, I didn't see any reduction in airspeed until about the time it made the 90 degree turn before impact. Lots of comments but can't give a hard analysis of what happened from start to finish. Big John If I recall correctly, the pilot of the accident aircraft borrowed that T-6 for the accident flight (his T-6 was down for maintenance, something like that...). The story went that his T-6 had the "high throw" aileron bellcranks, but the borrowed / accident T-6 did not. Bela P. Havasreti |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
T-6 accident
Bela P. Havasreti wrote:
On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 14:22:58 -0600, Big John wrote: On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 13:51:53 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote: WJRFlyBoy wrote in : On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:12:31 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote: This is the one I mean to post Dudley. Was having some trouble with Youtube due to a plug-in I think.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7eYhlm9FJ8 Can you assess the problem? What, with my browser or the accident? The T-6 passed 90 deg (and even earlier) with his nose below the horizon. He could have rolled back and saved it at that point, but he continued around in the now awkward position of having to prevent further altitude loss with excessive neg G which slowed him considerably and further skewed the airplane's. The exit half was a classic dish. Everybody does 'em sometimes.... Trick is to recognise a roll that's going to produce one early enough to abandon it. This guy didn't. The You tube extension add-on, I have no idea, but it's made a mess out of my youtube fun! Bertie Bertie I made some comments on another post on this accident which was before the video of the accident was posted. I have looked at the strip probably 50 times and can't come up with what I believe is a accurate analysis of what all happened and why. 1. Bird was in a shallow dive and picking up airspeed, above cruise, when strip starts. This is a good entry technique. 2. Bird bottomed out and nose was raised above the horizon before roll started. Again good technique. 3. After first 90 degrees of roll nose had dropped to at least level or very slightly nose down. 4. After 180 degrees of roll nose was definitely below the horizon. Not in a dive but shallow enough that continuing roll rate should have allowed completion of roll before bird hitting ground. 5. After 270 degrees of roll bird made almost a square corner port turn and shortly after hit the ground almost flat 90 degrees off line of flight. 6. It did not look to me like he dished out but I don't know why the bird made the rapid 90 degree turn off line of flight. My experience with dish out of roll, in T-6, bird ended up at max 30 degrees off line of flight. 7. Assuming video strip was real time, the roll was a pretty rapid slow roll. My slow rolls were about half the roll rate of this bird. 8.Roll was against torque, which would have slowed roll down without extra aileron. 9.Either you or Dudley talked about G forces slowing bird down. I didn't see any large angle of attack which would be required to slow bird down. 10. Looking at bird in video, I didn't see any reduction in airspeed until about the time it made the 90 degree turn before impact. Lots of comments but can't give a hard analysis of what happened from start to finish. Big John If I recall correctly, the pilot of the accident aircraft borrowed that T-6 for the accident flight (his T-6 was down for maintenance, something like that...). The story went that his T-6 had the "high throw" aileron bellcranks, but the borrowed / accident T-6 did not. Bela P. Havasreti The 6 had 2 choices of bell cranks on the ailerons. One was a 29up/15 down and the other a straight 15/15 if I recall. If the accident pilot was used to the roll rate and roll inertia resulting from a roll set initiated at his usual entry airspeed (aileron dynamic pressure) and rolled the borrowed aircraft with the asymmetrical aileron setup this could possibly explain a great deal to me as a display pilot. For a given airspeed, the aileron drag produced by the 29/15 setup would not have been what he was instinctively expecting and that could easily have spooked him as the roll commenced causing the control mis-application and confusion that seemed obvious from the crash. -- Dudley Henriques |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
T-6 accident
On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 13:51:53 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
WJRFlyBoy wrote in : On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:12:31 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote: This is the one I mean to post Dudley. Was having some trouble with Youtube due to a plug-in I think.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7eYhlm9FJ8 Can you assess the problem? What, with my browser or the accident? lol The T-6 passed 90 deg (and even earlier) with his nose below the horizon. He could have rolled back and saved it at that point, but he continued around in the now awkward position of having to prevent further altitude loss with excessive neg G which slowed him considerably and further skewed the airplane's. The exit half was a classic dish. Everybody does 'em sometimes.... Trick is to recognise a roll that's going to produce one early enough to abandon it. This guy didn't. I later saw your post equipment failure. The You tube extension add-on, I have no idea, but it's made a mess out of my youtube fun! Bertie Orbit Downloader -- Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either! |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
A Sad Accident | RL Anderson | Piloting | 29 | October 20th 07 08:14 PM |
F6F accident | Larry Cauble | Naval Aviation | 4 | October 14th 05 06:19 PM |
C-130 accident | Jay Honeck | Piloting | 28 | January 11th 05 06:52 PM |
MU2 accident | Big John | Piloting | 16 | April 13th 04 03:58 AM |
KC-135 accident | Big John | Piloting | 3 | November 19th 03 04:36 PM |