Slam dunk into Janesville

"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message
...

Because we're not discussing vectors requested by the pilot,
but vectors suggested by the controller. Given that, your statement:

Not telling the controller that you don't desire vectors does not
constitute a request for vectors.

is not relevent to the discussion.


But we're not discussing vectors suggested by the controller, we're
discussing vectors issued by the controller.



You're familiar with twisty little passages?


No.



How is this distinquished from an instruction?


It has the form of a suggestion.



That makes sense to me. So if the controller had suggested a
vector to Jay, then his acknowledgement of it - and then following
it - would constitude concurrence.


Yes.



So we're still left with the possibility that the controller didn't
do anything wrong to suggest vectors. To show otherwise, you must
show that the controller's vectors were not suggested, but were
instead instructed.


It has been shown that the vectors were not suggested.



Your attempts at ad hominems are not especially welcome, but don't expect
me to rise to the bait and sink to that level (to grossly mix metaphors).
I'm too curious about this peek into ATC operations.


No ad hominems. Your messages indicate you do not understand these terms.



If a vector is suggested by the controller, does this not include a
heading?


Typically, but not necessarily.



If not, what form does the vector suggestion take? That is, what phrasing
is used to suggest a vector which doesn't include a heading.


"Belchfire 1234A, suggest you turn twenty degrees left for traffic
avoidance."



So I take it that you believe the information stated in the AIM to be
correct?


The AIM contains a great deal of useful information, but it also contains
errors.



Ihe item under discussion is, I believe, 4-1-16-d. This describes
situations
in which vectors may be initiated by the controller to VFR aircraft, and
includes -3:

In the controller's judgment the vector is necessary for air safety.

The reason I ask about the accuracy of the information in the AIM is that
you earlier wrote:

No, I'm suggesting the radar controller doesn't know he can't vector VFR
traffic in Class E airspace outside of the TRSA

As I read these two statements, there is a disagreement. You indicate
that the controller cannot vector the VFR aircraft while the AIM indicates
that the controller can - under certain conditions - initiate vectors to
the
VFR aircraft.


The AIM is wrong.



You also wrote:

Controllers are required to abide by FAA Order 7110.65. If the AIM states
that controllers will provide services in a manner contrary to FAAO
7110.65, it follows that the AIM is wrong.

Interestingly, 4-1-16-d-3 doesn't use the word "suggestion". Someone
familiar with the AIM but not with 7110.65 could conclude - incorrectly,
as per 7110.65 - that a controller may initiate vector *instructions* to a
VFR aircraft.

So perhaps, even if by omission, there is an error in the AIM.


Bingo.



Where is this documented in 7110.65?


Para 5-6-1.g.



You exclude the possibility that the Honecks didn't feel free to decline
the vectors because either:

- They didn't realize at the time that they were suggestions, or
- They didn't want to drop this traffic avoidance tool, or
- They were familiar with the AIM but not 7110.65, or
- Something else I'm not considering


The vectors were not suggested.



What I don't see in the above is where the controller was made aware
that the Honecks were not happy receiving the vectors. And just to be
clear, the second cite you included was from a period of time after
they'd already been switched to the JVL tower. Vectors were no longer
being suggested at that time.


Vectors were not suggested at any time.



Ah! That's what I'm seeking. So a suggestion must actually have some
phrasing which distinguishes it from an instruction? Where's that stated
in 7110.65. I've been missing it.


Para 5-6-1.g.



No, but I don't see anything indicating otherwise either. That's why I've
been pressing the point of phrasing differences between instructions and
suggestions.


The vectors were not suggested because they weren't given in the form of a
suggestion.