Rwy incursions

Plane at the hold bar at active.
ATC-- Position and hold
Pilot taxies to the Rwy and holds.

Atc --take position and hold
Pilot taxies to rwy and holds.

Atc-- Hold in position
Pilot stays at hold bar.

Atc--Hold position.
Pilot stays at hold bar.

No wonder we have rwy incursions.

Any controllers want to comment.?
Hank

Hankal wrote:
Plane at the hold bar at active.
ATC-- Position and hold
Pilot taxies to the Rwy and holds.

Atc --take position and hold
Pilot taxies to rwy and holds.

Atc-- Hold in position
Pilot stays at hold bar.

Atc--Hold position.
Pilot stays at hold bar.

No wonder we have rwy incursions.

Any controllers want to comment.?

About what? You haven't said anything.

sure he did... he described various utterances that many of us have heard
out of the air traffic controllers mouth.. and may or may not mean what the
controller is trying to convey.

what he is forgetting is.. any taxi direction with hold short or crossing or
"taking the runway" directions should be replied to in the same fashion. ..
not just the calls sign but the action being taken

BT

"Newps" wrote in message
news:lmgtb.3482$Dw6.28144@attbi_s02...


Hankal wrote:
Plane at the hold bar at active.
ATC-- Position and hold
Pilot taxies to the Rwy and holds.

Atc --take position and hold
Pilot taxies to rwy and holds.

Atc-- Hold in position
Pilot stays at hold bar.

Atc--Hold position.
Pilot stays at hold bar.

No wonder we have rwy incursions.

Any controllers want to comment.?

About what? You haven't said anything.

BTIZ wrote:
sure he did... he described various utterances that many of us have heard
out of the air traffic controllers mouth.. and may or may not mean what the
controller is trying to convey.

You have heard a controller say "take position and hold?" The correct
phraseology is "Cessna 123, rwy 28R, position and hold."

ATC-- Position and hold

I'm in favor of simpler terminology such as "line up and wait"

http://cf.alpa.org/internet/alp/2000/aprrunway2.htm

Don't they already do this in some parts of the world?

you are correct.. that is the "correct" phraseology... but I have heard
controllers really screw up "text book" phrases..

BT

"Newps" wrote in message
news:sPhtb.3708$Dw6.32677@attbi_s02...


BTIZ wrote:
sure he did... he described various utterances that many of us have
heard
out of the air traffic controllers mouth.. and may or may not mean what
the
controller is trying to convey.

You have heard a controller say "take position and hold?" The correct
phraseology is "Cessna 123, rwy 28R, position and hold."

interesting the "flashing PAPI" to tell the aircraft on final there is an
aircraft still on the runway... and who controls the lights.. a sensor? the
same controller that clears you to land with an aircraft on the runway?

I've been "#3 on final cleared to land", so I'm sure the runway will be
"occupied" at least twice before I get to the threshold.

I've also been on downwind and "cleared to land, one departure will go ahead
of you, call your base".

BT
"John Harlow" wrote in message
...
ATC-- Position and hold

I'm in favor of simpler terminology such as "line up and wait"

http://cf.alpa.org/internet/alp/2000/aprrunway2.htm

Don't they already do this in some parts of the world?

"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:kLitb.2926$Ue4.646@fed1read01...

I've been "#3 on final cleared to land", so I'm sure the runway will be
"occupied" at least twice before I get to the threshold.


It can be occupied while you're landing and still have proper separation.

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 20:05:16 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in Message-Id:
. net:


"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:kLitb.2926$Ue4.646@fed1read01...

I've been "#3 on final cleared to land", so I'm sure the runway will be
"occupied" at least twice before I get to the threshold.


It can be occupied while you're landing and still have proper separation.


If ATC approves the position of the surface aircraft, I would presume
you are correct. And if so, it makes an interesting point regarding
the FAA definition of a runway incursion:

A Runway Incursion is defined as any occurrence at an airport
involving an aircraft, vehicle, person or object on the ground
that creates a collision hazard or results in a loss of separation
with an aircraft taking off, intending to take off, landing, or
intending to land.

A Runway Incursion occurs on a runway not a taxiway.

A Runway Incursion has to have a collision hazard or a loss of
separation.


FAA considers crossing a hold short line, if another aircraft is
within 3,000 feet, as an incursion, even if no collision hazard
exists.

The implication being, that a Loss Of Separation occurs if a landing
and/or departing Category I or II aircraft, and the Category I
aircraft operating contrary to ATC instruction, come within the
FAA Order 7110.65 '3-9-6. SAME RUNWAY SEPARATION' paragraph 'a'
mandated 3,000 foot separation of each other, results in a Category D
Runway Incursion regardless if there is a collision hazard or not. If
a Category III is involved, the mandatory separation is 6,000 feet.
If the runway is clear of aircraft, paragraph 'b' removes the mandate
for separation.

------------------------------------
http://www1.faa.gov/ATpubs/ATC/index.htm

http://www1.faa.gov/ATpubs/ATC/Chp3/atc0309.html

3-9-5. ANTICIPATING SEPARATION

Takeoff clearance needs not be withheld until prescribed separation
exists if there is a reasonable assurance it will exist when the
aircraft starts takeoff roll.


3-9-6. SAME RUNWAY SEPARATION

Separate a departing aircraft from a preceding departing or arriving
aircraft using the same runway by ensuring that it does not begin
takeoff roll until:

a. The other aircraft has departed and crossed the runway end or
turned to avert any conflict. If you can determine distances by
reference to suitable landmarks, the other aircraft needs only
be airborne if the following minimum distance exists between aircraft:
(See FIG 3-9-1 and FIG 3-9-2.)

1. When only Category I aircraft are involved- 3,000 feet.

2. When a Category I aircraft is preceded by a Category II aircraft-
3,000 feet.

3. When either the succeeding or both are Category II aircraft- 4,500
feet.

4. When either is a Category III aircraft- 6,000 feet.

5. When the succeeding aircraft is a helicopter, visual separation may
be applied in lieu of using distance minima.

FIG 3-9-1

Same Runway Separation
[View 1]


FIG 3-9-2

Same Runway Separation
[View 2]


NOTE-
Aircraft same runway separation (SRS) categories are specified in
Appendices A, B, and C and based upon the following definitions:

CATEGORY I- small aircraft weighing 12,500 lbs. or less, with a single
propeller driven engine, and all helicopters.

CATEGORY II- small aircraft weighing 12,500 lbs. or less, with
propeller driven twin-engines.

CATEGORY III- all other aircraft.

b. A preceding landing aircraft is clear of the runway. (See FIG
3-9-3.)

FIG 3-9-3

Preceding Landing Aircraft Clear of Runway


REFERENCE-
P/CG Term- Clear of the Runway.

--------------------------------------------



Runway Incursion
A Runway Incursion is defined as any occurrence at an airport
involving an aircraft, vehicle, person or object on the ground that
creates a collision hazard or results in a loss of separation with an
aircraft taking off, intending to take off, landing, or intending to
land.

Surface Incident
A Surface Incident is defined as any event where unauthorized or
unapproved movement occurs within the movement area or an occurrence
in the movement area associated with the operation of an aircraft that
affects or could affect the safety of flight. Surface incidents result
from Pilot Deviations (PDs), Vehicle/Pedestrian Deviations (VPDs), or
Operational Error/Deviations (OEs/ODs).

Differences between a runway incursion and a surface incident a A
Runway Incursion occurs on a runway. A Surface Incident may occur on a
runway or a taxiway. A Runway Incursion has to have a collision hazard
or a loss of separation. The FAA categorizes Runway Incursions in four
categories depending on the potential for collision. These categories
a

A Separation decreases and participants take extreme action to
narrowly avoid a collision.

B Separation decreases and there is a significant potential for
collision.

C Separation decreases but there is ample time and distance to avoid a
potential collision.

D Little or no chance of collision but meets the definition of a
runway incursion.

When defining a runway incursion it is recognized that a wide range of
variables dramatically impact the relative severity of a runway
incursion. Of these many variables, five key parameters were selected
to add dimension to the evaluation of relative severity.
The five operational dimensions are interdependent; for example,
aircraft speed will affect available reaction time. These five
operational dimensions (listed below) formed the basis for developing
the runway incursion categories that capture the spectrum of
severity.

Operational Dimensions Affecting Runway Incursion Severity

Operational Dimensions Description

Available Reaction Time Available Reaction Time
considers how much time the pilot, controllers, and/or vehicle
operators had to react to the situation based on aircraft type, phase
of flight, and separation distance.

Evasive or Corrective Action Evasive or Corrective Action
considers the need for and type of evasive or corrective maneuvers
required to avoid a runway collision by pilots and/or air traffic
controllers.

Environmental Conditions Environmental Conditions
considers visibility, surface conditions, and light conditions.

Speed of Aircraft and/or Vehicle Speed of Aircraft and/or
Vehicle – speed as a function of aircraft type and phase of flight
(taxi, takeoff, landing)

Proximity of Aircraft and/or Vehicle Proximity of Aircraft and/or
Vehicle, or their separation distance from one another.

--------------------------------------


----------------------------------------------------------
AOPA ePilot Volume 5, Issue 32 August 8, 2003
----------------------------------------------------------

"It's worth noting that the vast majority of GA runway incursions
pose little or no danger of collision," said ASF Executive
Director Bruce Landsberg.

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

If ATC approves the position of the surface aircraft, I would presume
you are correct.


If you read the material you quote, you'd know I am correct.