"Cleared Straight-In Runway X; Report Y Miles Final"

O.K, O.K. Maybe closing your eyes for five seconds may not be the best idea
I've ever come up with. Guess I should have thought that one through a
little better.

Mea culpa...



"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...
Relative to your anecdote, I have a question: Why not simply close your
eyes, turn on your landing light for five seconds, turn it off, open your
eyes? This would have given tower their visual ID without impacting your
night vision.

If you're flying an ILS and in a cloud it could be safely assumed you are
on
an IFR flight plan, in which case tower would have been providing
separation.

If you're in a cloud, you would not be able to maintain separation
yourself
as you wouldn't be able to see much of anything, especially at night.

If your aircraft is properly trimmed, five seconds away from the panel and
controls should not have a serious impact on aircraft stability.

It sounds like the situation described earlier on this thread where your
entire focus was on your wants and needs, with no consideration for the
larger picture.



"AJW" wrote in message
...

"Brien K. Meehan" wrote in message
...

Regardless, a plane flying "to the numbers" from 30 degrees off the
downwind side will cross every possible base leg to that runway.

It will also cross every possible downwind leg at some point. For
example, a plane on downwind set up for a 1/2 mile base leg could
collide with the inbound plane 0.866 miles downwind from the numbers.

On the other hand, if that inbound plane were to set up for a 5 mile
final, there would be no possible conflict for any pattern
configuration inside those 5 miles. That's a great reason for a
tower
controller to ask for it.


It's a good reason if she has or anticipates other traffic.

Ity's probably time for the OP'er to say he now sees he may have been in
error.
The good thing about posting the quesiton is that it also may have made
some
readers more aware of what ATC instructions mean.

As an aside, a long tiome ago I was making an ILS into BED after dark,
and
tower asked me for a landing light so they could see where I was (this
was
a
long time ago). Now that was a time when I did not comply with tower --
a
landing light in the clouds is a good way to really screw up night
vision.
I
told them the landing light would have to wait until I had the runway in
sight.

You've earned my respect, Bill.




O.K, O.K. Maybe closing your eyes for five seconds may not be the best idea
I've ever come up with. Guess I should have thought that one through a
little better.

Mea culpa...



"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...
Relative to your anecdote, I have a question: Why not simply close your
eyes, turn on your landing light for five seconds, turn it off, open your
eyes? This would have given tower their visual ID without impacting your
night vision.

"Neil Gould" wrote in message
hlink.net...
You're placing the entire responsibility on Jim. Interesting that Steven's
replies do not.

Not sure how you get that. I am saying essentially the same thing Steven
said (for example) when he wrote "He's wrong whether or not there was other
traffic. He did not follow the controller's instruction."

Perhaps you'd share with us where you feel that Steven is assigning
responsibility with the controller. Surely you don't think the difference
between a "clearance" and an actual clearance is significant here? Even
assuming the controller actually said "cleared", which I give only 50/50
probability of actually having happened.

Pete

Okay, I'll give it one more go. Like many of you, I am fascinated by this
passion for flight that occupies many of our souls. I started this thread
to present a real-world flying example that I thought some of you would find
interesting. Judging by the many different perspectives presented, many of
you seem quite engaged by the topic. Initially, I also hoped to learn
something, and share a possible flying error that I thought I may have
committed, so that others could potentially learn something. And, yes, I am
an ATP/CFII who's very lucky to be able to fly an aerobatic,
high-performance, complex, taildragger from Mexico to Canada--and everywhere
in between. I'm fairly experienced, but that doesn't mean that I don't make
constant mistakes while flying (like all of you).

Of course, USENET has its limitations (not the least of which is having to
occasionally come into contact with rude, over-bearing people who insist on
making presumptuous personal attacks in their zeal to convince people how
much smarter they are than anyone else). I won't engage in similar
behavior, but I think everyone knows the individuals I'm talking about. For
those of you who have approached this topic professionally, without
resorting to such uncivil conduct, I thank you for your insights and
thoughts. I'm always amazed at how the relative anonymity of the Internet
compels people to make the most absurd and offensive comments about complete
strangers. During my 20 years in the Marine Corps, such communication in
public would often end up with the offending individual picking his teeth
off the bar-room floor.

In between all the nasty comments and boorish behavior, I still think
there's a lot of valuable learning going on, so I'll persist. I think I've
been able to finally resolve the issue I originally presented (at least in
my mind).

Here's what I learned thus far, and how:

I called a Class C airport near where I reside and spoke to their "ATC
Procedures Specialist" named Doug. Doug told me many interesting things:

(1) The expression "Report 5 miles final" is not an instruction. It is
not standard phraseology, and thus it is merely a request. Hence, there was
no legal obligation to even comply with the request (certainly there was no
violation of the FARs as some of you seem to believe). Moreover, Doug
believes there is never a requirement to fly to a precise spot on the
extended centerline during a VFR final approach (as some of you so
passionately have stated repeatedly)--regardless of whether the controller
makes this "Report X miles Final" REQUEST.

(2) At Doug's airport, they consider every approach within a 45 degree
cone of the centerline to comply with the "Make Straight In, Runway X"
instruction. Clearly, there is NO OBLIGATION to intercept the centerline at
any PARTICULAR point (although it must be intercepted at SOME point to land
the plane; which I clearly did in this case--at ~1/2 mile from the numbers).

I then called KPRC, and spoke to a very cordial gentlemen named Mr. Paul
Wirdsky (sp?), who is assigned as the Tower Manager. He is the supervisor
of the controller who precipitated this thread. After listening to my
account, he stated the following:

(1) He believes his controller clearly made a mistake, and that there is
no obligation for a pilot to intercept the centerline precisely at any
particular point. In his view, flying directly towards the airport as I
did, and aligning with the runway at about 1/2 NM before landing, was the
proper and correct thing to do.

(2) He is reviewing the tape, and will counsel the controller on her
well-intended but poorly-delivered "correction" of a pilot when the
controller mistakenly applied her own personal misinterpretation of the
regulations.

These guys seem fairly definitive to me. Oops, sorry--this is USENET. I
know some of you still will never accept their well-informed opinions, so
let me offer some additional ideas for you to think about (so perhaps logic
will prevail where expert opinion does not).

In reference to the following definition:

STRAIGHT-IN APPROACH VFR- Entry into the traffic pattern by interception of
the extended runway centerline (final approach course) without executing any
other portion of the traffic pattern.

There is nothing in this definition that suggests the pilot must intercept
the extended runway centerline at any particular point (rather it simply
must be intercepted at SOME point). Consequently, the real issue I posed is
whether one can be "on final" without being precisely on the extended
centerline. I believe you obviously can. Here's some specific themes on
the topic:

(1) Flying is inherently IMPRECISE. Specifically, nobody flies on or
intercepts an extended centerline PRECISELY. No one. Not on an ILS, not
visually, not ever. If the FAR and PTS standard was "The Applicant must
intercept the extended centerline at precisely the distance instructed by
the controller to report on final," not one of us would have our tickets.
So, what's an acceptable level of precision? I asked this question before,
but none of the naysayers seemed to respond. If I HAVE to fly to the
extended centerline at precisely 5NM, how far can I be off and not violate
the FARs? 1 foot? 10 feet? 1/4 mile? BTW, how does even one FIND this
precise position without reference to a GPS? Even if I have a GPS, do we
measure from the numbers, the touchdown zone, or the Airport Reference Point
(ARP)? Clearly, trying to apply this level of precision when flying VFR at
150 kts is ridiculous. I think a better standard might be the one posed by
the ATC Procedures Specialist above where "every approach within a 45 degree
cone of the centerline complies with the "Make Straight In, Runway X"
instruction."

(2) "Final" is a general direction. I can approach any airport from any one
of 360 possible angles (in whole degrees). Thus, the odds are 1/360 that
the direction I am approaching from is precisely aligned with the runway
centerline. The question you should ask yourself is what maximum number of
degrees you would be comfortable being offset from the centerline so that
you would call it a final approach? 0.1 deg? 1 deg? 10 degs? 30 degs?
45 degs? In other words, don't think of final as ONE specific heading, but
a SET of headings all generally aligned towards the runway. A downwind and
base leg should similarly be defined in terms of a GENERAL direction--not a
specific and precise line.

(3) "Final" is a state of mind. If I MUST be on the extended centerline to
be on "final" (a statement which many of you have made), how do you account
for S-Turns? How do you justify deliberately off-setting for wake
turbulence? When a gust knocks me off the centerline, am I no longer on
final? If I slip it in without once being on the centerline (until the
flare), did I just make an approach "without flying a final?" Please.

BTW, since many of you asked: There was no traffic within the Class D
airspace known to me--certainly none in my view, and the control frequency
was not used at any time between my initial check-in, and my "5 Mile Final"
report. FWIW, I also learned that the KPRC Tower has radar.

In short, I've concluded my decision-making and behavior in this particular
situation to be safe, legal, justifiable, and 100% correct. I would do the
exact same thing next time, and I encourage my fellow pilots to consider
doing the same. That said, there's certainly nothing WRONG with offsetting
to intercept the extended centerline at an extended distance from the
airport in order to get more time to get setup for the landing, etc. (just a
little circuitous for my tastes--as well as potentially dangerous or
impracticable in some situations when considering terrain, etc.). Of
course, many of you will find gross fault with the above, while continuing
to nit-pick, argue about punctuation, and throw wildly uninformed
accusations about the competency of myself and the ATC folks I've cited
above. Ahhh, USENET. Recommend everyone try to get a little less keyboard
time, and a whole lot more stick time. Thanks!

Fair winds,

Jim

"Jim Cummiskey" wrote in message
...
Hi, all. Ran into this one flying back from KOSH a couple weeks ago:

I check in with the KPRC controller "20 Miles NE" of Love Field in
Prescott,
AZ. She clears me with "Cleared Straight-in Runway 21L, Report 5 miles
final."

I fly directly towards the numbers. My heading was approximately 240
(hence, I'm ~30 deg off of the extended centerline).

At 5 miles from the airport (still offset from the centerline), I report
"5
mile final." She questions my position and gets all snippy (indeed, darn
right rude) that I am "not on final" since I am not on the extended
centerline. She patronizingly cautions me to be "careful about this."

Hence, the question is "What does 'Cleared Straight-in; Report X miles
Final" really mean?" Is it. . . .

(1) You must fly directly from your current position to a point on the
extended centerline that is X miles from the numbers, and then report
(sounds like a base to me).

or

(2) You can fly directly from your current position to the numbers (thus
"straight-in"), and report when you are X miles away.

I obviously vote for #2, but the controller clearly thought otherwise (it
seems to me that if 30 deg = "straight-in" in the IFR domain, it ought to
work well enough for VFR situations). Regardless, it is potentially
dangerous when controllers and pilots define things differently. Which
definition is right?

Regards, Jim

"Jim Cummiskey" wrote in message
...
[...]
In short, I've concluded my decision-making and behavior in this
particular
situation to be safe, legal, justifiable, and 100% correct.

You are hilarious. By your own admission, you were at a position different
from where you claim to be, and yet you still persist in thinking that a
bunch of other different statements make you right. You might want to
(re?)read the FAA's publications regarding the five hazardous attitudes.

Whatever...you're right, this is Usenet, and it takes all sorts. I just
hope I'm not around the next time you report your position. I prefer that
people claiming to be at a particular spot actually *be there*.

Pete

You might wish to consider a different set of sources...

From the Pilot/Controller Glossary: "Report" - Used to instruct pilots to
advise ATC of specified information; e,.g. "Report passing Hamilton VOR."

This is essentially what your controller said to you.

Again: from the Pilot/Controller Glossary: "Traffic Pattern": "Final
Approach" - A flight path in the direction of landing along the extended
runway centerline. The final approach normally extends from the base leg to
the runway. An aircraft making a straight-in approach VFR is also considered
to be on final approach.

IIRC, you stated that you were essentially flying straight to the numbers
from your present position (if it was someone else who said that, I
apologize). By even the most liberal reading of the above definitions this
procedure would be incorrect. You should be on the runway centerline when
you cross it's intersection with base.

Before proceeding, let's pick up one more definition from the
Pilot/Controller Glossary: "Straight-In Approach VFR" - Entry into the
traffic pattern by interception of the extended runway centerline (final
approach course) without executing any other portion of the traffic pattern.

Let's take a look at a sentence from one of the above definitions: "An
aircraft making a straight-in approach VFR is also considered to be on final
approach". I suppose many readings could be placed on this, but it's meaning
is quite simple: If an aircraft is making a straight-in approach VFR, the
final approach leg is extended away from the runway from the intersection
with the base leg to the aircraft's position on the extended centerline. All
it is doing is extending the length of the final approach.

So, to sum up:

Under any circumstances, when flying a straight-in approach VFR, the
aircraft should be on the extended runway centerline (obviously flying
runway heading) at the point where the runway extended centerline intersects
with the base leg, unless otherwise instructed. Obviously, the exact
location of this intersection is somewhat nebulous, but most pilots should
be able to hit it fairly closely.

I noted "unless otherwise instructed"; here is the instruction: "'Cleared
Straight-in; Report X miles Final". The troublesome part seems to be:
"Report X miles Final". But if you put the deleted words back in the meaning
is quite clear: "Report YOUR POSITION WHEN YOU ARE X miles OUT ON Final". It
then becomes obvious that, in order to comply with the controller's request,
you would need to be on the extended centerline five miles out.

That would be the absolute minimum distance at which you should intersect
the extended centerline.

But, a "common sense" reading of all of the relevant information gives the
impression that the intent of all of this is that when a pilot is cleared
"Straight-In VFR", he/she should fly as quickly as reasonable feasible to
the extended centerline, then begin flying the final approach.

Now, let's look at some of the other things you noted:

Regarding the IMPRECISE argument, don't you usually manage to put your
wheels PRECISELY on the top surface of the runway. Realistically, tolerances
are a part of flying. But, in the instance at hand, you would probably been
fine if your reported at six miles out. Sometimes it doesn't hurt to do
things a little early.

"Final is a general direction". No, final is the extended centerline of the
runway.In fact, a land surveying crew could locate a point on that line 100
miles away from the airport. So, it comes down to the abilities of the pilot
and the accuracy of his/her equipment.

"Final is a state of mind". No, final is a defined line coursed in a
specified direction. And I'm afraid your examples have no merit, primarily
because of familiarity. True, S-turns have you flying varying courses, but
your overall direction of flight is along the extended centerline. Most
everyone involved is aware of wake turbulence, of the offset method for
avoiding it, and the controller will generally know what type of aircraft is
ahead of you, which would provide a justification for your offset course.
Everyone is aware of gusts and slips. You aren't making a very good argument
on this.

I hope you are able to get this resolved...





"Jim Cummiskey" wrote in message
...
Okay, I'll give it one more go. Like many of you, I am fascinated by this
passion for flight that occupies many of our souls. I started this thread
to present a real-world flying example that I thought some of you would
find
interesting. Judging by the many different perspectives presented, many
of
you seem quite engaged by the topic. Initially, I also hoped to learn
something, and share a possible flying error that I thought I may have
committed, so that others could potentially learn something. And, yes, I
am
an ATP/CFII who's very lucky to be able to fly an aerobatic,
high-performance, complex, taildragger from Mexico to Canada--and
everywhere
in between. I'm fairly experienced, but that doesn't mean that I don't
make
constant mistakes while flying (like all of you).

Of course, USENET has its limitations (not the least of which is having to
occasionally come into contact with rude, over-bearing people who insist
on
making presumptuous personal attacks in their zeal to convince people how
much smarter they are than anyone else). I won't engage in similar
behavior, but I think everyone knows the individuals I'm talking about.
For
those of you who have approached this topic professionally, without
resorting to such uncivil conduct, I thank you for your insights and
thoughts. I'm always amazed at how the relative anonymity of the Internet
compels people to make the most absurd and offensive comments about
complete
strangers. During my 20 years in the Marine Corps, such communication in
public would often end up with the offending individual picking his teeth
off the bar-room floor.

In between all the nasty comments and boorish behavior, I still think
there's a lot of valuable learning going on, so I'll persist. I think
I've
been able to finally resolve the issue I originally presented (at least in
my mind).

Here's what I learned thus far, and how:

I called a Class C airport near where I reside and spoke to their "ATC
Procedures Specialist" named Doug. Doug told me many interesting things:

(1) The expression "Report 5 miles final" is not an instruction. It is
not standard phraseology, and thus it is merely a request. Hence, there
was
no legal obligation to even comply with the request (certainly there was
no
violation of the FARs as some of you seem to believe). Moreover, Doug
believes there is never a requirement to fly to a precise spot on the
extended centerline during a VFR final approach (as some of you so
passionately have stated repeatedly)--regardless of whether the controller
makes this "Report X miles Final" REQUEST.

(2) At Doug's airport, they consider every approach within a 45 degree
cone of the centerline to comply with the "Make Straight In, Runway X"
instruction. Clearly, there is NO OBLIGATION to intercept the centerline
at
any PARTICULAR point (although it must be intercepted at SOME point to
land
the plane; which I clearly did in this case--at ~1/2 mile from the
numbers).

I then called KPRC, and spoke to a very cordial gentlemen named Mr. Paul
Wirdsky (sp?), who is assigned as the Tower Manager. He is the supervisor
of the controller who precipitated this thread. After listening to my
account, he stated the following:

(1) He believes his controller clearly made a mistake, and that there
is
no obligation for a pilot to intercept the centerline precisely at any
particular point. In his view, flying directly towards the airport as I
did, and aligning with the runway at about 1/2 NM before landing, was the
proper and correct thing to do.

(2) He is reviewing the tape, and will counsel the controller on her
well-intended but poorly-delivered "correction" of a pilot when the
controller mistakenly applied her own personal misinterpretation of the
regulations.

These guys seem fairly definitive to me. Oops, sorry--this is USENET. I
know some of you still will never accept their well-informed opinions, so
let me offer some additional ideas for you to think about (so perhaps
logic
will prevail where expert opinion does not).

In reference to the following definition:

STRAIGHT-IN APPROACH VFR- Entry into the traffic pattern by interception
of
the extended runway centerline (final approach course) without executing
any
other portion of the traffic pattern.

There is nothing in this definition that suggests the pilot must intercept
the extended runway centerline at any particular point (rather it simply
must be intercepted at SOME point). Consequently, the real issue I posed
is
whether one can be "on final" without being precisely on the extended
centerline. I believe you obviously can. Here's some specific themes on
the topic:

(1) Flying is inherently IMPRECISE. Specifically, nobody flies on or
intercepts an extended centerline PRECISELY. No one. Not on an ILS, not
visually, not ever. If the FAR and PTS standard was "The Applicant must
intercept the extended centerline at precisely the distance instructed by
the controller to report on final," not one of us would have our tickets.
So, what's an acceptable level of precision? I asked this question
before,
but none of the naysayers seemed to respond. If I HAVE to fly to the
extended centerline at precisely 5NM, how far can I be off and not violate
the FARs? 1 foot? 10 feet? 1/4 mile? BTW, how does even one FIND this
precise position without reference to a GPS? Even if I have a GPS, do we
measure from the numbers, the touchdown zone, or the Airport Reference
Point
(ARP)? Clearly, trying to apply this level of precision when flying VFR
at
150 kts is ridiculous. I think a better standard might be the one posed
by
the ATC Procedures Specialist above where "every approach within a 45
degree
cone of the centerline complies with the "Make Straight In, Runway X"
instruction."

(2) "Final" is a general direction. I can approach any airport from any
one
of 360 possible angles (in whole degrees). Thus, the odds are 1/360 that
the direction I am approaching from is precisely aligned with the runway
centerline. The question you should ask yourself is what maximum number
of
degrees you would be comfortable being offset from the centerline so that
you would call it a final approach? 0.1 deg? 1 deg? 10 degs? 30 degs?
45 degs? In other words, don't think of final as ONE specific heading,
but
a SET of headings all generally aligned towards the runway. A downwind
and
base leg should similarly be defined in terms of a GENERAL direction--not
a
specific and precise line.

(3) "Final" is a state of mind. If I MUST be on the extended centerline
to
be on "final" (a statement which many of you have made), how do you
account
for S-Turns? How do you justify deliberately off-setting for wake
turbulence? When a gust knocks me off the centerline, am I no longer on
final? If I slip it in without once being on the centerline (until the
flare), did I just make an approach "without flying a final?" Please.

BTW, since many of you asked: There was no traffic within the Class D
airspace known to me--certainly none in my view, and the control frequency
was not used at any time between my initial check-in, and my "5 Mile
Final"
report. FWIW, I also learned that the KPRC Tower has radar.

In short, I've concluded my decision-making and behavior in this
particular
situation to be safe, legal, justifiable, and 100% correct. I would do
the
exact same thing next time, and I encourage my fellow pilots to consider
doing the same. That said, there's certainly nothing WRONG with
offsetting
to intercept the extended centerline at an extended distance from the
airport in order to get more time to get setup for the landing, etc. (just
a
little circuitous for my tastes--as well as potentially dangerous or
impracticable in some situations when considering terrain, etc.). Of
course, many of you will find gross fault with the above, while continuing
to nit-pick, argue about punctuation, and throw wildly uninformed
accusations about the competency of myself and the ATC folks I've cited
above. Ahhh, USENET. Recommend everyone try to get a little less
keyboard
time, and a whole lot more stick time. Thanks!

Fair winds,

Jim

"Jim Cummiskey" wrote in message
...
Hi, all. Ran into this one flying back from KOSH a couple weeks ago:

I check in with the KPRC controller "20 Miles NE" of Love Field in
Prescott,
AZ. She clears me with "Cleared Straight-in Runway 21L, Report 5 miles
final."

I fly directly towards the numbers. My heading was approximately 240
(hence, I'm ~30 deg off of the extended centerline).

At 5 miles from the airport (still offset from the centerline), I report
"5
mile final." She questions my position and gets all snippy (indeed,
darn
right rude) that I am "not on final" since I am not on the extended
centerline. She patronizingly cautions me to be "careful about this."

Hence, the question is "What does 'Cleared Straight-in; Report X miles
Final" really mean?" Is it. . . .

(1) You must fly directly from your current position to a point on the
extended centerline that is X miles from the numbers, and then report
(sounds like a base to me).

or

(2) You can fly directly from your current position to the numbers (thus
"straight-in"), and report when you are X miles away.

I obviously vote for #2, but the controller clearly thought otherwise
(it
seems to me that if 30 deg = "straight-in" in the IFR domain, it ought
to
work well enough for VFR situations). Regardless, it is potentially
dangerous when controllers and pilots define things differently. Which
definition is right?

Regards, Jim

Jim Cummiskey wrote:

I called a Class C airport near where I reside and spoke to their "ATC
Procedures Specialist" named Doug. Doug told me many interesting things:

He's wrong.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

"Jim Cummiskey" wrote in message
...

Here's what I learned thus far, and how:

I called a Class C airport near where I reside and spoke to their "ATC
Procedures Specialist" named Doug. Doug told me many interesting things:

(1) The expression "Report 5 miles final" is not an instruction.


Yes it is.



It is not standard phraseology, and thus it is merely a request. Hence,
there was no legal obligation to even comply with the request (certainly
there was no violation of the FARs as some of you seem to believe).
Moreover, Doug believes there is never a requirement to fly to a precise
spot on the extended centerline during a VFR final approach (as some
of you so passionately have stated repeatedly)--regardless of whether the
controller makes this "Report X miles Final" REQUEST.


Doug is wrong.

"Report 5 miles final" IS standard phraseology. From the Pilot/Controller
Glossary:

REPORT- Used to instruct pilots to advise ATC of specified information;
e.g., "Report passing Hamilton VOR."

FAA Order 7110.65 tells controllers that legs of the traffic pattern are
valid reporting points. See para 3-10-1.g. below:


FAA Order 7110.65P Air Traffic Control

Chapter 3. Airport Traffic Control-- Terminal

Section 10. Arrival Procedures and Separation

3-10-1. LANDING INFORMATION

Provide current landing information, as appropriate, to arriving
aircraft. Landing information contained in the ATIS broadcast may be omitted
if the pilot states the appropriate ATIS code. Runway, wind, and altimeter
may be omitted if a pilot uses the phrase "have numbers." Issue landing
information by including the following:

NOTE-
Pilot use of "have numbers" does not indicate receipt of the ATIS
broadcast.

a. Specific traffic pattern information (may be omitted if the
aircraft is to circle the airport to the left).

PHRASEOLOGY-
ENTER LEFT/RIGHT BASE.

STRAIGHT-IN.

MAKE STRAIGHT-IN.

STRAIGHT-IN APPROVED.

RIGHT TRAFFIC.

MAKE RIGHT TRAFFIC.

RIGHT TRAFFIC APPROVED. CONTINUE.

b. Runway in use.

c. Surface wind.

d. Altimeter setting.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Current Settings, Para 2-7-1.

e. Any supplementary information.

f. Clearance to land.

g. Requests for additional position reports. Use prominent
geographical fixes which can be easily recognized from the air, preferably
those depicted on sectional charts. This does not preclude the use of the
legs of the traffic pattern as reporting points.

NOTE-
At some locations, VFR checkpoints are depicted on sectional
aeronautical and terminal area charts. In selecting geographical fixes,
depicted VFR checkpoints are preferred unless the pilot exhibits a
familiarity with the local area.

h. Ceiling and visibility if either is below basic VFR minima.

i. Low level wind shear or microburst advisories when available.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Low Level Wind Shear/Microburst Advisories, Para
3-1-8.

j. Issue braking action for the runway in use as received from
pilots or the airport management when Braking Action Advisories are in
effect.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Braking Action Advisories, Para 3-3-5.



(2) At Doug's airport, they consider every approach within a 45 degree
cone of the centerline to comply with the "Make Straight In, Runway X"
instruction. Clearly, there is NO OBLIGATION to intercept the centerline
at any PARTICULAR point (although it must be intercepted at SOME
point to land the plane; which I clearly did in this case--at ~1/2 mile
from
the numbers).


FAA Order 7110.65 prescribes air traffic control procedures and phraseology
for use by persons providing air traffic control services in the US. Doug
and others at his airport are not in a position to redefine those procedures
and phraseology as they see fit. "Report", "Final", and "Straight in
Approach" are all defined in the Pilot/Controller Glossary, which is an
addendum to FAA Order 7110.65.



I then called KPRC, and spoke to a very cordial gentlemen named Mr. Paul
Wirdsky (sp?), who is assigned as the Tower Manager. He is the supervisor
of the controller who precipitated this thread. After listening to my
account, he stated the following:

(1) He believes his controller clearly made a mistake, and that there
is no obligation for a pilot to intercept the centerline precisely at any
particular point. In his view, flying directly towards the airport as I
did, and aligning with the runway at about 1/2 NM before landing, was the
proper and correct thing to do.



There is an obligation for a pilot to adhere to valid ATC instructions,
you'll find it in FAR 91.123(b). While the instruction to report a five
mile final may or may not have been necessary in this case, it was without
question a valid instruction and you were bound by regulation to comply with
it.



(2) He is reviewing the tape, and will counsel the controller on her
well-intended but poorly-delivered "correction" of a pilot when the
controller mistakenly applied her own personal misinterpretation of the
regulations.


What regulation do you believe she misinterpreted?

The controller erred when she said "Cleared Straight-in Runway 21L". You
were a VFR arrival to an airport in Class D airspace, the only clearance
needed is a clearance to land.



These guys seem fairly definitive to me. Oops, sorry--this is USENET. I
know some of you still will never accept their well-informed opinions, so
let me offer some additional ideas for you to think about (so perhaps
logic will prevail where expert opinion does not).


FAA Order 7110.65 is definitive. Those guys are taking positions contrary
to that order, that makes them wrong.



In reference to the following definition:

STRAIGHT-IN APPROACH VFR- Entry into the traffic pattern by
interception of the extended runway centerline (final approach course)
without executing any other portion of the traffic pattern.

There is nothing in this definition that suggests the pilot must intercept
the extended runway centerline at any particular point (rather it simply
must be intercepted at SOME point).


And the point specified by the controller was a five mile final, therefore
you were required to intercept the extended centerline at a point not closer
than five miles.



Consequently, the real issue I posed is whether one can be "on final"
without being precisely on the extended centerline. I believe you
obviously can. Here's some specific themes on the topic:

(1) Flying is inherently IMPRECISE. Specifically, nobody flies on or
intercepts an extended centerline PRECISELY. No one. Not on an ILS,
not visually, not ever.


Do you consider yourself aligned with the runway when your nose is cocked 30
degrees from the centerline?



If the FAR and PTS standard was "The Applicant must
intercept the extended centerline at precisely the distance instructed by
the controller to report on final," not one of us would have our tickets.
So, what's an acceptable level of precision? I asked this question
before,
but none of the naysayers seemed to respond. If I HAVE to fly to the
extended centerline at precisely 5NM, how far can I be off and not violate
the FARs? 1 foot? 10 feet? 1/4 mile? BTW, how does even one FIND
this precise position without reference to a GPS? Even if I have a GPS,
do we measure from the numbers, the touchdown zone, or the Airport
Reference Point (ARP)? Clearly, trying to apply this level of precision
when flying VFR at 150 kts is ridiculous.


You wrote, "At 5 miles from the airport (still offset from the centerline),
I report '5 mile final'." How did you measure your distance then?
Heretofore there's been no suggestion that your distance was incorrect, it's
just that you were not aligned with the runway.



I think a better standard might be the one posed by the ATC
Procedures Specialist above where "every approach within a 45
degree cone of the centerline complies with the "Make Straight In,
Runway X" instruction."


He was wrong.



(2) "Final" is a general direction.


"Final" for any given runway is specific.



FWIW, I also learned that the KPRC Tower has radar.


But they don't have radar on the field. They have a feed from an
Albuquerque Center radar site, probably Phoenix, which is fifty miles away.
You wouldn't necessarily have been depicted by the radar.



In short, I've concluded my decision-making and behavior in this
particular situation to be safe, legal, justifiable, and 100% correct.


Well, if there was no other traffic it was likely safe, but without question
it was illegal, unjustifiable, and 100% wrong.



I would do the exact same thing next time, and I encourage my fellow
pilots to consider doing the same.


Which means you haven't learned a thing from this discussion. So what then
was your purpose in starting this thread?

"Jim Cummiskey" wrote in message

...I've concluded my decision-making and behavior in this particular
situation to be safe, legal, justifiable, and 100% correct.

I never doubted for a moment that this would be your conclusion, Doc.

Jim Cummiskey wrote:


(2) At Doug's airport, they consider every approach within a 45 degree
cone of the centerline to comply with the "Make Straight In, Runway X"
instruction. Clearly, there is NO OBLIGATION to intercept the centerline at
any PARTICULAR point (although it must be intercepted at SOME point to land
the plane; which I clearly did in this case--at ~1/2 mile from the numbers).


Well if you were approaching with a 30 degrees angle you were in a 60
degrees cone, outside Doug's definition.

GB