engine shop pireps wanted

Vicky, our '75 Cardinal RG, is sick. We changed the oil and got a
report of iron in the oil analysis (from Blackstone) and iron
particles in the filter (from Second OilPinion). Hmmm... 26 tach hours
later, same thing. Pulled a cylinder: yep, cam spalling. (Assume
wailing, rending of garments, gnashing of teeth here)

The engine is a Lycoming IO-360-A1B6D, 750 hours since first major in
Aug 2001

Other factors: 9000 hours on the airframe. Fresh paint, poor (not
'bad') interior. Decent IFR avionics: GX60, KX155 w/ GS, GTX327,
JPI-700, no autopilot. 750 (+?) hours on the dry vacuum pump; this
will be replaced at this time. Also will be replacing with the
lightweight starter.

Human factors: myself and two partners; one of whom is inactive and
has been looking to sell out. We fly about 200 hours a year. With a
new partner, we expect to increase that.

Options: Our A&P is leaning towards a major overhaul rather than just
a cam replacement. I am concerned about possible other damage to the
engine from those iron particles riding around in the oil. But our
inactive partner (I haven't talked to him yet) will probably want to
get out for minimum bucks. Active partner and I are looking at
long-term value. We plan on owning this plane for a long time.

Costs: Our A&P has recommended three engine shops: America's Aircraft
(OK), Airmark Engines (FL), and Graham Engines (GA). I have talked to
all three. Each advised cam replacement, not major overhaul. The price
seems to be about $2000 for our A&P to r&r the engine, ?? for
shipping, and $5000 to $6000 to the engine shop. Time frame of about 3
to 4 weeks at the shop. All of this assumes no additional problems
are found when they open it up.

Wither? While active partner and I would love to get a factory reman'd
non-D engine, that does not seem reasonable. And we don't even want to
think about the cost of that. And even doing a major would move our
current bill from about $8000 to $17000 or more.

Advice? Any advice about the path to take, and any pireps on the three
engine shops mentioned (or any others) will be most humbly and
gratefully received.


N2679V, 'Vicky' '75 RG @ PDK, Atlanta
Steve Mills, in major bummed-out mode

On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 09:52:54 -0400, Stephen N Mills wrote:



Wither? While active partner and I would love to get a factory reman'd
non-D engine, that does not seem reasonable. And we don't even want to
think about the cost of that. And even doing a major would move our
current bill from about $8000 to $17000 or more.

I used Airmark Engines, and as far as I can tell, they did an outstanding
job on the overhaul of my AK4 360 Lycoming engine.

The only thing I have done since overhaul is oil changes.

For me, I'd go the whole shabang from my positive experiences. If you
already trust your A$P, why would you want a second opinion?

After the overhaul, at least you know who has been "behind" the engine, and
you can break it in the way you want to. Also, for me, the overhaul price
was pretty much a "fixed price". I paid 13,100 for the overhaul. I had my
annual done at the same time, and the total came to 15K.

It took 5 weeks from teardown to wheels leaving the ground for me.

I was told, other then getting a 0 time engine log book for a factory
remand engine, overhaul is the way to go.

Allen

A Lieberman wrote:


For me, I'd go the whole shabang from my positive experiences. If you
already trust your A$P, why would you want a second opinion?

Because it's a good practice. Ever hear of "Trust, but verify"?

Dave

Ronald Reagan said that about the Russian's right?

Anyway if it were my engine I'd probably jsut put a new cam in it and
fly it for 5 more years or so. Just me .02 YMMV

Jon Kraus
'79 Mooney 201




Because it's a good practice. Ever hear of "Trust, but verify"?

Dave

The engine is a Lycoming IO-360-A1B6D, 750 hours since first major in
Aug 2001

Am I the only one here that finds that appalling? An IO-360 is generally
considered to be one of the most bullet-proof engines ever built -- what the
heck caused the cam to spall so quickly? With over 15 hours per month of
usage, it's not like the engine sat unused for very long -- so you should
have had plenty of lubrication on those lobes.

Who overhauled it *last* time?

Personally, with such low time on everything else (assuming all new
cylinders, etc., in 2001), I'd have my A&P put in a new camshaft and fly it
another 1000 hours or so.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On 5-Jun-2005, "Jay Honeck" wrote:

Am I the only one here that finds that appalling? An IO-360 is generally

considered to be one of the most bullet-proof engines ever built -- what
the heck caused the cam to spall so quickly? With over 15 hours per
month of
usage, it's not like the engine sat unused for very long -- so you should
have had plenty of lubrication on those lobes.

Who overhauled it *last* time?

Personally, with such low time on everything else (assuming all new
cylinders, etc., in 2001), I'd have my A&P put in a new camshaft and fly
it another 1000 hours or so.


I agree with Jay. The IO-360 in our Arrow went to around 2100 hours without
any signifiant repairs. Even then, we put in a new (factory rebuilt) engine
more on general principles than any indication of a problem. The last oil
analysis on the old engine was completely benign. What's more, we didn't
even use multi-vis anti-scuff oil or additives -- just plain old Aeroshell
SAE 50. During the life of the engine the plane flew an average of only
about 175 hours/year.

If your cam went bad that soon after overhaul, I'm wondering if it was
replaced, or at least refurbished, at that time. Remember, to be acceptable
for use in an overhaul a part needs to meet only "service limits". An owner
can demand better, but the cost of the overhaul rises accordingly.

--
-Elliott Drucker

wrote:


If your cam went bad that soon after overhaul, I'm wondering if it was
replaced, or at least refurbished, at that time. Remember, to be acceptable
for use in an overhaul a part needs to meet only "service limits". An owner
can demand better, but the cost of the overhaul rises accordingly.

Cams are not usually replaced at overhaul. Price an overhaul with and without
cam replacement and you'll see why.

Dave Butler wrote:

Cams are not usually replaced at overhaul. Price an overhaul with and without
cam replacement and you'll see why.

It depends on who's quoting. I don't think Lyc. reuses cams on their
overhauls. I just had a Superior Millenium overhaul done on my O-360
and the price included a new cam. Their take was that the overhaul is
being done to new specs and a reground cam will not meet new specs.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

wrote:

Dave Butler wrote:

Cams are not usually replaced at overhaul. Price an overhaul with and without
cam replacement and you'll see why.


It depends on who's quoting. I don't think Lyc. reuses cams on their
overhauls. I just had a Superior Millenium overhaul done on my O-360
and the price included a new cam. Their take was that the overhaul is
being done to new specs and a reground cam will not meet new specs.

A quick search didn't find any statement from Lycoming itself, but this article

http://www.aopa.org/pilot/tripacer/tripacer9808.htm

says:
"Lycoming offers both factory remanufactured and overhauled engines.
Remanufactured engines have essentially all-new parts but may use some major
overhauled components such as cases, crankshaft, and accessory gears. Lycoming
builds remans with new cylinders, pistons, camshafts, and ancillaries like the
oil pump. With the Lycoming overhaul, you may end up with more used, overhauled
parts..."

Jay Honeck wrote:
The engine is a Lycoming IO-360-A1B6D, 750 hours since first major in
Aug 2001


Am I the only one here that finds that appalling? An IO-360 is generally
considered to be one of the most bullet-proof engines ever built -- what the
heck caused the cam to spall so quickly? With over 15 hours per month of
usage, it's not like the engine sat unused for very long -- so you should
have had plenty of lubrication on those lobes.

Who overhauled it *last* time?

I think that's probably not a relevant question. Chances are the can was not
replaced. It was inspected and found to be in tolerance. Most owners with an
in-tolerance cam will elect not to replace it.