SGT. GREIGO'S FLAK JACKET

I've seen several references to troops in Vietnam (and probably other
places) sitting on their
helmets

Not a very comfortable seat!

What I saw was helicopter pilots siitting on their flak jackets.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

(ArtKramr) wrote:

No balls at all. At least not as much as you had when you flew all your
missions.. Tell us about it

More to the point, they allowed Griego to keep *his* balls by
using his flak jacket in a clever manner.

John Comer's B-17 memoirs (engineer/top turret gunner)
recounts their navigator having the equipment shop stitch up
protective armor for his crotch that laced elaborately over his normal
flight gear.

One day they were assigned several new crewmembers, who
arrived at the flight line jittery and gray-faced with worry. The
navigator launched into an elaborate tirade about the Nazi Flak
gunners trying to shoot him in the crotch, and how he wasn't going to
let them, etc - insisting the new guys help him lace up the crotch
armor while cussing the Flak gunners and every other German he could
think of.

The crew loosened up and flew a fairly tough mission where
they performed very well.

Sometimes a little improvisation with the body armor is just
the ticket. There are plenty of first-person accounts of Huey crews in
Vietnam who had Flak jackets on their floors; Cobra pilots, too (hard
to imagine in that tight space, but...)



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On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 06:37:33 -0500, Cub Driver
wrote:

How many people are like me, wincing whenever someone is killed in
Iraq? I keep a sort of subconscious tally, the way I'd measure the
miles around an island when I've set out to walk around it. Six months
of losses in Iraq equal about one day in Vietnam at the height of the
American involvement, yet the Good People sigh about the "quagmire"
we're in.

Any death is regretable, but as John Stuart Mill noted, "War is an
ugly thing...." Thinking that we can live in world at peace without
the sacrifice of warriors who are willing to do the necessary is
pathetic and disgusting.

I've got students at the college who occasionally raise the "quagmire"
comment (it is, after all a political science course). I note for them
that we've been involved in Iraq for less than a year. The active
combat took place for less than a month. The total losses as you note,
are considerably less than the nay-sayers best estimates.

Halberstam wrote "Making of A Quagmire" in '68, when we had been in
combat for five years, not ten months. At the time, we were commencing
Vietnamization, the US withdrawal without national or regional
stabilization. The result was the fall of SVN and the killing fields
of Cambodia. Now, after 35 years we're seeing a rise of capitalism in
Vietnam and collapse of the communist model.

In Iraq, we saw this weekend the acceptance of an interim constitution
with compromise between Sunni and Shi'ite factions on a government.
The insurgents continue to cause damage, but they harm their nation's
people much more than the US forces and beyond the liberals in
America, the ones that are suffering and recognizing them for what
they are will be the people of a free and democratic Iraq.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

"Ragnar" wrote:


I don't have to fly missions in WW2 to know that deliberately and repeatedly
disobeying a direct order reflects badly on any officer who condones the
activity. That was as true in the AAC then as it is now in the USAF.

So why wasn't the man disciplined after deliberately and repeatedly defying
a direct order?


Haven't figured this out by now?...hell, it never happened, it's
a 'story' (sound familiar?). Art just thought it'd make a cute
little story that a few might believe that's all.
--

-Gord.

Ed Rasimus wrote:

On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 06:37:33 -0500, Cub Driver
wrote:

How many people are like me, wincing whenever someone is killed in
Iraq? I keep a sort of subconscious tally, the way I'd measure the
miles around an island when I've set out to walk around it. Six months
of losses in Iraq equal about one day in Vietnam at the height of the
American involvement, yet the Good People sigh about the "quagmire"
we're in.

Any death is regretable, but as John Stuart Mill noted, "War is an
ugly thing...." Thinking that we can live in world at peace without
the sacrifice of warriors who are willing to do the necessary is
pathetic and disgusting.

I've got students at the college who occasionally raise the "quagmire"
comment (it is, after all a political science course). I note for them
that we've been involved in Iraq for less than a year. The active
combat took place for less than a month. The total losses as you note,
are considerably less than the nay-sayers best estimates.

Halberstam wrote "Making of A Quagmire" in '68, when we had been in
combat for five years, not ten months. At the time, we were commencing
Vietnamization, the US withdrawal without national or regional
stabilization. The result was the fall of SVN and the killing fields
of Cambodia. Now, after 35 years we're seeing a rise of capitalism in
Vietnam and collapse of the communist model.

In Iraq, we saw this weekend the acceptance of an interim constitution
with compromise between Sunni and Shi'ite factions on a government.
The insurgents continue to cause damage, but they harm their nation's
people much more than the US forces and beyond the liberals in
America, the ones that are suffering and recognizing them for what
they are will be the people of a free and democratic Iraq.

Ex post facto rationalization for a stupid blunder at the instigation
of obvious traitors. Enjoy your false and absurdly expensive phoney
moral gratification, stupid slave.

Grantland

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 16:27:16 GMT, (Grantland)
wrote:

Ed Rasimus wrote:

In Iraq, we saw this weekend the acceptance of an interim constitution
with compromise between Sunni and Shi'ite factions on a government.
The insurgents continue to cause damage, but they harm their nation's
people much more than the US forces and beyond the liberals in
America, the ones that are suffering and recognizing them for what
they are will be the people of a free and democratic Iraq.

Ex post facto rationalization for a stupid blunder at the instigation
of obvious traitors. Enjoy your false and absurdly expensive phoney
moral gratification, stupid slave.

Grantland

You've demonstrated extensive vocabulary, but poor rationale. You've
contributed little to the discussion, but it's nice to see you're
participating.

I'm no one's slave. I don't have the slightest clue what your comment
relates to, but by position can only assume that you're talking about
the last paragraph. How a prediction of political reaction to the
insurgent's random terrorist attacks can be "ex post facto" escapes
me. Rationale (or rationalization) is usually going to be expressed
after events.

What blunder? Bringing the political forces of Iraq to the table and
starting the process to constitutional democracy?

What traitors? The Sunnis or Shi'ites? Or the insurgents still loyal
to Saddam?

My opinions, honestly expressed can't by definition be false. Moral
gratification can not, by definition have expense. Morality is within
the holder, and therefore while it might be wrong can seldom be
phoney.

And, as for comparative intelligence, between you and me, I'll let
others be the judge of stupidity.

If you've got an argument to make, do so. But reduce the screeds to
squealing in your own pathetic crib.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Gord wrote:
Haven't figured this out by now?...hell, it never happened, it's
a 'story' (sound familiar?). Art just thought it'd make a cute
little story that a few might believe that's all.

Are you telling us that Art is telling "There I was" stories? "Flat on my back
at 10,000 feet while trying to dive bomb the..."?

Rick

(OXMORON1) wrote:

Gord wrote:
Haven't figured this out by now?...hell, it never happened, it's
a 'story' (sound familiar?). Art just thought it'd make a cute
little story that a few might believe that's all.

Are you telling us that Art is telling "There I was" stories? "Flat on my back
at 10,000 feet while trying to dive bomb the..."?

Rick

Well, let's put it this way, as Judge Judy says "You lie to me
once and I'll doubt every word you say after that".

Both Brooks and George Z caught Art lying. No doubt about it.

What's your take on that?. I know what mine is.
--

-Gord.

"Gord Beaman" wrote in message
...
(OXMORON1) wrote:

Gord wrote:
Haven't figured this out by now?...hell, it never happened, it's
a 'story' (sound familiar?). Art just thought it'd make a cute
little story that a few might believe that's all.

Are you telling us that Art is telling "There I was" stories? "Flat on my
back
at 10,000 feet while trying to dive bomb the..."?

Rick

Well, let's put it this way, as Judge Judy says "You lie to me
once and I'll doubt every word you say after that".

Both Brooks and George Z caught Art lying. No doubt about it.

What's your take on that?. I know what mine is.

Doesn't Art claiming to be telling stories create a sort of disclaimer?

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 16:27:16 GMT, (Grantland)
wrote:

Ed Rasimus wrote:

In Iraq, we saw this weekend the acceptance of an interim constitution
with compromise between Sunni and Shi'ite factions on a government.
The insurgents continue to cause damage, but they harm their nation's
people much more than the US forces and beyond the liberals in
America, the ones that are suffering and recognizing them for what
they are will be the people of a free and democratic Iraq.

Ex post facto rationalization for a stupid blunder at the instigation
of obvious traitors. Enjoy your false and absurdly expensive phoney
moral gratification, stupid slave.

Grantland

You've demonstrated extensive vocabulary, but poor rationale. You've
contributed little to the discussion, but it's nice to see you're
participating.

I'm no one's slave. I don't have the slightest clue what your comment
relates to, but by position can only assume that you're talking about
the last paragraph. How a prediction of political reaction to the
insurgent's random terrorist attacks can be "ex post facto" escapes
me. Rationale (or rationalization) is usually going to be expressed
after events.

Rational thought in and of itself is completely foreign to Grantland, Ed.
Extreme racism *is* however one of his more common traits. Arguing with him
is futile; plonking him will not result in your missing discourse of any
import.

Brooks

snip