2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll Now Open

Or skip that last good field or airport to try and cross the finish for that 250 pt incentive...

There are going to be pros and cons to every situation. I think we should expect competition directors to set a fair and reasonable task based on current weather and from that point it should be up to the pilot in command to make their decision from that point on. Soaring is not the safest sport out there but is comparable to motorcycles. If you respect it, your safety and that of those involved goes up significantly compared to the guy flying by at 120 mph without a helmet.

The majority of pilots again voted to begin implementing FAI rules at US Nationals and I don’t see any increased risk having flown both versions.

On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 1:19:27 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Or skip that last good field or airport to try and cross the finish for that 250 pt incentive...

....which is why there is something to be said for a sane minimum finish height.

T8

Which is available and used under FAI rules for finishes.

On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 1:43:06 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Which is available and used under FAI rules for finishes.

Of course. So the argument that the USA scoring proposal somehow encourages risky behavior at the finish doesn't really hold up, does it?

T8

On Wednesday, 30 October 2019 15:40:58 UTC+1, Tango Eight wrote:
On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 8:55:15 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 12:15:07 PM UTC+2, Jim White wrote:
At 07:14 30 October 2019, krasw wrote:

I should add that proposed scoring change to Annex A (by USA) creates
MASSIVE incentive to scratch home over the last trees and creates a huge
out landing risk.

There is already a strong incentive to scratch home and pretty much
everyone I fly against in the UK 15s would do so anyway. I like the
proposal as it simplifies the scoring rules.

Sensible pilots will choose a flat landable field before the line that can
be used safely if they cannot make the hedge. In circumstances where there
is a finish ring the decision to land will probably be made higher and with
reduced risk.

Landing out is a integral part of competition flying in gliders. We train
for it and do it regularly. If you fly a motor glider (dig) then you
probably are less current and more at risk when the engine doesn't behave.

Jim

If you are the one out of 50 pilots who gets home and others land out on the last field next to finish line, current scoring gives you maybe ten point spread over pilots landing out. Proposed scoring would increase this to 250 points (devaluation scheme applies to both, depending on the day). In my opinion the incentive is not the same.

Provides incentive to fly your own race, yes. That's a good thing.

T8

Ok, picture this. Weather is weak dry thermals to 2000ft. You have a long task to fly. The pilot who gets home collects the 250p award. There is 50 pilots flying the same task in ****ty weather. And your tactic would be "to fly your own race"?

On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 2:19:51 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
On Wednesday, 30 October 2019 15:40:58 UTC+1, Tango Eight wrote:
On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 8:55:15 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 12:15:07 PM UTC+2, Jim White wrote:
At 07:14 30 October 2019, krasw wrote:

I should add that proposed scoring change to Annex A (by USA) creates
MASSIVE incentive to scratch home over the last trees and creates a huge
out landing risk.

There is already a strong incentive to scratch home and pretty much
everyone I fly against in the UK 15s would do so anyway. I like the
proposal as it simplifies the scoring rules.

Sensible pilots will choose a flat landable field before the line that can
be used safely if they cannot make the hedge. In circumstances where there
is a finish ring the decision to land will probably be made higher and with
reduced risk.

Landing out is a integral part of competition flying in gliders. We train
for it and do it regularly. If you fly a motor glider (dig) then you
probably are less current and more at risk when the engine doesn't behave.

Jim

If you are the one out of 50 pilots who gets home and others land out on the last field next to finish line, current scoring gives you maybe ten point spread over pilots landing out. Proposed scoring would increase this to 250 points (devaluation scheme applies to both, depending on the day). In my opinion the incentive is not the same.

Provides incentive to fly your own race, yes. That's a good thing.

T8

Ok, picture this. Weather is weak dry thermals to 2000ft. You have a long task to fly. The pilot who gets home collects the 250p award. There is 50 pilots flying the same task in ****ty weather. And your tactic would be "to fly your own race"?

In USA, we will not launch if the top of lift is 2000'.

T8

On Thursday, 31 October 2019 14:21:59 UTC+2, Tango Eight wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 2:19:51 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
On Wednesday, 30 October 2019 15:40:58 UTC+1, Tango Eight wrote:
On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 8:55:15 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 12:15:07 PM UTC+2, Jim White wrote:
At 07:14 30 October 2019, krasw wrote:

I should add that proposed scoring change to Annex A (by USA) creates
MASSIVE incentive to scratch home over the last trees and creates a huge
out landing risk.

There is already a strong incentive to scratch home and pretty much
everyone I fly against in the UK 15s would do so anyway. I like the
proposal as it simplifies the scoring rules.

Sensible pilots will choose a flat landable field before the line that can
be used safely if they cannot make the hedge. In circumstances where there
is a finish ring the decision to land will probably be made higher and with
reduced risk.

Landing out is a integral part of competition flying in gliders. We train
for it and do it regularly. If you fly a motor glider (dig) then you
probably are less current and more at risk when the engine doesn't behave.

Jim

If you are the one out of 50 pilots who gets home and others land out on the last field next to finish line, current scoring gives you maybe ten point spread over pilots landing out. Proposed scoring would increase this to 250 points (devaluation scheme applies to both, depending on the day).. In my opinion the incentive is not the same.

Provides incentive to fly your own race, yes. That's a good thing.

T8

Ok, picture this. Weather is weak dry thermals to 2000ft. You have a long task to fly. The pilot who gets home collects the 250p award. There is 50 pilots flying the same task in ****ty weather. And your tactic would be "to fly your own race"?

In USA, we will not launch if the top of lift is 2000'.

T8

Your arguments are so rock solid that I concede.

On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 8:43:06 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
On Thursday, 31 October 2019 14:21:59 UTC+2, Tango Eight wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 2:19:51 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
On Wednesday, 30 October 2019 15:40:58 UTC+1, Tango Eight wrote:
On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 8:55:15 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 12:15:07 PM UTC+2, Jim White wrote:
At 07:14 30 October 2019, krasw wrote:

I should add that proposed scoring change to Annex A (by USA) creates
MASSIVE incentive to scratch home over the last trees and creates a huge
out landing risk.

There is already a strong incentive to scratch home and pretty much
everyone I fly against in the UK 15s would do so anyway. I like the
proposal as it simplifies the scoring rules.

Sensible pilots will choose a flat landable field before the line that can
be used safely if they cannot make the hedge. In circumstances where there
is a finish ring the decision to land will probably be made higher and with
reduced risk.

Landing out is a integral part of competition flying in gliders.. We train
for it and do it regularly. If you fly a motor glider (dig) then you
probably are less current and more at risk when the engine doesn't behave.

Jim

If you are the one out of 50 pilots who gets home and others land out on the last field next to finish line, current scoring gives you maybe ten point spread over pilots landing out. Proposed scoring would increase this to 250 points (devaluation scheme applies to both, depending on the day). In my opinion the incentive is not the same.

Provides incentive to fly your own race, yes. That's a good thing.

T8

Ok, picture this. Weather is weak dry thermals to 2000ft. You have a long task to fly. The pilot who gets home collects the 250p award. There is 50 pilots flying the same task in ****ty weather. And your tactic would be "to fly your own race"?

In USA, we will not launch if the top of lift is 2000'.

T8

Your arguments are so rock solid that I concede.

That wasn't an argument, just putting the truth out there. You think we are doing this wrong?

Here is how it works: The CD will generally announce criteria for safe launch and safe task opening. I'm going to disregard specialized ridge sites for this exposition. Launch criteria will generally be sustainable lift to about 2500 agl. Gate opening depends upon local terrain, but I don't believe I have ever see a gate open on less than 3000' agl. Task does not open until CD polls airborne task advisors, who must declare "Fair and Safe conditions".

T8

On Thursday, 31 October 2019 08:42:34 UTC-6, Tango Eight wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 8:43:06 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
On Thursday, 31 October 2019 14:21:59 UTC+2, Tango Eight wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 2:19:51 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
On Wednesday, 30 October 2019 15:40:58 UTC+1, Tango Eight wrote:
On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 8:55:15 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 12:15:07 PM UTC+2, Jim White wrote:
At 07:14 30 October 2019, krasw wrote:

I should add that proposed scoring change to Annex A (by USA) creates
MASSIVE incentive to scratch home over the last trees and creates a huge
out landing risk.

There is already a strong incentive to scratch home and pretty much
everyone I fly against in the UK 15s would do so anyway. I like the
proposal as it simplifies the scoring rules.

Sensible pilots will choose a flat landable field before the line that can
be used safely if they cannot make the hedge. In circumstances where there
is a finish ring the decision to land will probably be made higher and with
reduced risk.

Landing out is a integral part of competition flying in gliders. We train
for it and do it regularly. If you fly a motor glider (dig) then you
probably are less current and more at risk when the engine doesn't behave.

Jim

If you are the one out of 50 pilots who gets home and others land out on the last field next to finish line, current scoring gives you maybe ten point spread over pilots landing out. Proposed scoring would increase this to 250 points (devaluation scheme applies to both, depending on the day). In my opinion the incentive is not the same.

Provides incentive to fly your own race, yes. That's a good thing.

T8

Ok, picture this. Weather is weak dry thermals to 2000ft. You have a long task to fly. The pilot who gets home collects the 250p award. There is 50 pilots flying the same task in ****ty weather. And your tactic would be "to fly your own race"?

In USA, we will not launch if the top of lift is 2000'.

T8

Your arguments are so rock solid that I concede.

That wasn't an argument, just putting the truth out there. You think we are doing this wrong?

Here is how it works: The CD will generally announce criteria for safe launch and safe task opening. I'm going to disregard specialized ridge sites for this exposition. Launch criteria will generally be sustainable lift to about 2500 agl. Gate opening depends upon local terrain, but I don't believe I have ever see a gate open on less than 3000' agl. Task does not open until CD polls airborne task advisors, who must declare "Fair and Safe conditions".

T8

T8, my experience at to world championships (on the ground) is that task advisors are not consulted, rather 'x' number of minutes after launch is completed the task is open.

Procedural difference that could be addressed with local procedures.

And even if a task, wherever it may be and under whatever set of rules, if we start out with 4,000’+ bases, we can’t control what is happening at the finish between rain, storms or high cirrus that may cut off lift later in the day. At that point is where 250 pts is up for grabs let’s say between two pilots that had matching speeds up to that point and one decides to do the safe thing and land in the last good field or airport while another decides he’s going to push that 0 MC glide to a 750’ agl finish ring through rain or whatever may lie ahead over unlandable terrain. Even that 750’ buffer can disappear quickly if misjudged. Crewing are a nationals years ago, I saw John Seaborn turn around on task one day and land while others punched through a line of rain and lightning to finish the task. A8 did the right thing, losing a shot at the top

And for exactly that same reason, I don’t see it spreading out a gaggle compared to current FAI rules. When crappy weather strikes, pilots aren’t going to risk landing out if there are 250 pts on the table and they have a better chance of making it around in a group. The reason we don’t see gaggles in the US has more to do with pilot attitude and the numbers involved. We just don’t see the entries they have in Europe at our contests. If we had 130 gliders like a WGC or Europeans, gaggling would be an issue under our rules. When we switch to FAI rules, I just don’t see gaggles materializing out of nowhere if our most popular classes only have 20-30 entries.