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Why GA is Dying



 
 
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  #21  
Old July 23rd 06, 12:06 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Jim Logajan
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Default Why GA is Dying

"Dudley Henriques" wrote:
Airport security is a mess and needs
reform badly. My point was simply that having it is necessary.


Maybe all airports should emulate the kind of security they have at
AirVenture Oshkosh. ;-)
  #22  
Old July 23rd 06, 12:31 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Dudley Henriques[_1_]
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Default Why GA is Dying


"Jim Logajan" wrote in message
...
"Dudley Henriques" wrote:
Airport security is a mess and needs
reform badly. My point was simply that having it is necessary.


Maybe all airports should emulate the kind of security they have at
AirVenture Oshkosh. ;-)


I really miss the "old days".

I remember one night at OSH many years ago with Steve Whitman and a whole
gang of us sitting around under the wing of my airplane eating hot dogs;
drinking cold beer; and telling old war stories. No gates; no cops; no
security; only good fellowship and the reflection of happy faces from the
fire a few yards down the line in an empty tiedown spot......YES!!!!!!!!
There actually WAS an empty tiedown spot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:-))
Dudley Henriques


  #23  
Old July 23rd 06, 12:34 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Andrew Sarangan[_1_]
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Default Why GA is Dying

To be fair to the FBO guy, the TSA security training enforces the view
that everyone at the airport should be treated with suspicion. He was
probably following what he was told to do.



Emily wrote:
Kyle Boatright wrote:
snip

September 11 or not, customer service at flight schools and FBOs has
gone down the tubes. I can't tell you the number of times I've been
blown off when I go in to rent an airplane. They have no way of knowing
WHO I am, and when I walk in and am just handed a rental sheet and
brushed off, they might have just lost a potential student.

Then there was the guy at one FBO who wouldn't let me back on the ramp
to my plane because I didn't have ID. ID was in the purse, in the
backseat on the airplane. I'm not sure if they wanted the airplane
sitting permanently on their ramp or not.

Anyway, I'm not sure anyone even cares about the survival of general
aviation. I just hope the airlines survive, or I'm out of a job. Ick.


  #24  
Old July 23rd 06, 12:56 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Morgans[_3_]
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Default Why GA is Dying


"Gene Seibel" wrote in message
oups.com...
If you have no security, you don't want a reporter with a camera
working on a "lax security at the airport story."


THAT is the best reason I can think of yet, for the whole incident. I know
that is not what was behind it, though.
--
Jim in NC

  #25  
Old July 23rd 06, 01:24 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Emily[_1_]
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Default Why GA is Dying

john smith wrote:
In article ,
Emily wrote:

I dunno, last I checked, you weren't required to carry ID in the United
States. Still makes me angry.


Cannot remember where I have seen it, but, as of sometime ago, post
9/11... if you are flying, you are required by regulation to carry your
pilot's certificate and a government issued photo id.


I know that. I was talking about pre-now. It was 2000/2001 when I fly
four or five trips a week.
  #26  
Old July 23rd 06, 01:25 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Emily[_1_]
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Default Why GA is Dying

Dudley Henriques wrote:
snip
It "ain't" perfect, that's for sure. The best approach is one of quiet
cooperation


The best approach to unfair legislation and scare tactics is NEVER quiet
cooperation.
  #27  
Old July 23rd 06, 01:45 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Dudley Henriques[_1_]
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Default Why GA is Dying


"Emily" wrote in message
. ..
Dudley Henriques wrote:
snip
It "ain't" perfect, that's for sure. The best approach is one of quiet
cooperation


The best approach to unfair legislation and scare tactics is NEVER quiet
cooperation.


That's true, but this doesn't seem to be what I'm seeing from your posts.
What I'm getting from reading you is that you have a problem on the front
side with authority. Your first example about the cop "hassling you" states
this without question for me anyway.
You state up front the following;
"I once had a cop come up to me at the observation area and ask why I was
taking pictures. I told him that it wasn't illegal and I wasn't under
any obligation to explain myself to him."
This in my opinion was an unnecessary and overly agressive response to this
situation. By your own word, he simply asked you why you were taking
pictures. He had every right to do that, and your response, instead of being
cooperative and simply telling him what you were doing, was to "educate him"
and tell him you weren't obligated in any way to explain anything to him".
Then you go on to complain in your next post how "some guy" asked you for ID
before letting you on the ramp to access your plane.
Personally, I think you have a problem understanding that there are security
issues existing in aviation at all, and that even if there are, you don't
want to be bothered with them for whatever personal reasons you might have.
Personally, I would suggest to you that in the future, as a working
commercial pilot, you consider carrying your ID with you when leaving your
airplane on the ramp, and be prepared to produce it to authority when and if
its requested in the proper manner.
All this having been said, I realize you and I are in complete disagreement
on this issue so I'll let you take whatever shot you like at me and simply
move on.
:-))
Dudley Henriques


  #28  
Old July 23rd 06, 02:24 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Emily[_1_]
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Default Why GA is Dying

Dudley Henriques wrote:
"Emily" wrote in message
. ..
Dudley Henriques wrote:

snip
Then you go on to complain in your next post how "some guy" asked you for ID
before letting you on the ramp to access your plane.

Right. That was a quick trip to Indy Metro to drop off something for a
friend. This was before the pilot ID requirement and I wasn't planning
on driving anywhere once I got to the airport. I simply had NO photo ID
with me and my airman certs were in the plane. So what was I supposed
to do? The FBO wasn't letting me back on the ramp (even though they'd
seen me walk inside) and since it was a rental, I couldn't just leave
the plane there. Do YOU not see the problem with that?

and that even if there are, you don't
want to be bothered with them for whatever personal reasons you might have.

Basically, yes. And I don't let myself be bothered by it.

Personally, I would suggest to you that in the future, as a working
commercial pilot, you consider carrying your ID with you when leaving your
airplane on the ramp, and be prepared to produce it to authority when and if
its requested in the proper manner.

I'm not a working commercial pilot. I work in the industry, but not
flying. I think you've misunderstood much of what I'm saying. When the
cop stopped me for taking photos, I wasn't in a restricted area but a
public observation area. I wasn't requested to produce ID (not that I
had any with me) I was asked why I was taking pictures. I am under NO
requirement to explain myself.


All this having been said, I realize you and I are in complete disagreement
on this issue so I'll let you take whatever shot you like at me and simply
move on.

Who says I'm taking shots at you? I don't reply to PEOPLE on a
newsgroup, I reply to posts. Yes, I have problems with authority that
shouldn't be authority in the first place. Rolling over and taking it
is what gets people in trouble and I think a lot of people need to start
learning from history.
  #29  
Old July 23rd 06, 02:48 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Jim Logajan
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Posts: 1,958
Default Why GA is Dying

"Dudley Henriques" wrote:
"Emily" wrote:
The best approach to unfair legislation and scare tactics is NEVER
quiet cooperation.

You state up front the following;
"I once had a cop come up to me at the observation area and ask why I
was taking pictures. I told him that it wasn't illegal and I wasn't
under any obligation to explain myself to him."
This in my opinion was an unnecessary and overly agressive response to
this situation.


When you consider the location (an observation area), that it was a white
woman, and the question itself, most people would realize the cop was using
the question as a mechanism of intimidation. Under the circumstances the cop
was clearly being overly aggressive himself and Emily's response seems to
have been proportionate. In my humble opinion of course.

By your own word, he simply asked you why you were
taking pictures. He had every right to do that,


Personally, I like to avoid arguments with people carrying side-arms. :-)
That said, just because someone has a right to say something doesn't make it
a good idea. Cops probably expect 1 out every N people will fail to be
intimidated by deliberately intimidating questions, but so long as N stays
large, they'll keep using them. As N drops toward 1, they generally stop
using that tactic. Being a policeman is sometimes a thankless and dirty job,
despite being a large value to maintaining a civil society. So there is no
reason cops should be using tools that are actually uncivil toward the
innocent and fundamentally don't accomplish anything of value toward making
our society civil.

(I obviously have no problem with people who have an anti-authority streak.
But I suppose that can sometimes make for a less-than civil society. I guess
I just can't win! :-)
  #30  
Old July 23rd 06, 02:52 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Dudley Henriques[_1_]
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Posts: 135
Default Why GA is Dying


"Emily" wrote in message
. ..

I'm not a working commercial pilot. I work in the industry, but not
flying. I think you've misunderstood much of what I'm saying. When the
cop stopped me for taking photos, I wasn't in a restricted area but a
public observation area. I wasn't requested to produce ID (not that I had
any with me) I was asked why I was taking pictures. I am under NO
requirement to explain myself.


No, I think I understood you perfectly. In fact, you are confirming it with
this post. What you are saying is absolutely clear. You have every right of
course to approach these issues as you see fit, but what I'm seeing is that
because you were approached by a "cop" in a public observation area instead
of a restricted area and asked why you were taking pictures, your immediate
response to this instead of answering the question was to instantly revert
to your conception of your "rights" instead of simply cooperating with the
request.
Even here, in this post, you feel the need to CAPITALIZE the word "NO" in
the sentence stating "I am under NO requirement to explain myself" which is
a clear indication to me at least,that your prime concern during this
incident and indeed even before the incident occurred, wasn't airport
security at all but the fact that you felt you were being "hassled" by this
security person because of your "understanding" concerning an imagined
difference between a public and a restricted area on an airport and how that
difference affects security issues.
Let me advise you right here and now that when it comes to a duly appointed
security officer acting in that capacity anywhere on airport property,
asking you why you are taking pictures on the airport, it doesn't matter
where you are on that airport. That security officer has every right to
approach you in a reasonable manner and ask you to explain what you are
doing. At the point you are approached in this reasonable manner, it is
incumbent on you to supply a reasonable answer to that security officer.
Aside from the legalities involved, doing this, rather than doing what you
did, is not only the right response for a person concerned with airport
security, but the prudent response as well.
As I said, from what I have read of your posting here, you and I are natural
adversaries, at least from my point of view anyway :-)). I simply think your
attitude is totally out of line on this issue.
This is of course no big deal at all . Happens all the time on Usenet. Some
people are just better off avoiding each other :-))
Hey......all the very best to you.
Dudley Henriques


 




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