Finish lines

At 05:00 06 May 2005, Andy Blackburn wrote:

My point was I don't think it's a great idea to be
so cavalier about low altitude spins. The 500' cylinder
encourages an aggressive, ballistic pull up to reach
the finish altitude for pilots on a marginal glide.
The gate doesn't - you just land. The fact that someone
got away with a spin at 400' is not a confidence-builder
for me.

9B



The answer to that problem is simple, it's the start
scenario in reverse. Any pilot flying below the minimum
finish height is recorded as a landout at that point.
There is now absolutely no point in pulling up to 500ft.

The funny thing is that a reasonable compromise may be just to have a
finish cylinder, but no finish altitude - but you have to land at the
home field to get speed points. 1 mile, 2 miles, makes no difference,
you have to have the energy to make it home. More than 2 miles
(actually, probably more than 1 mile) and some guys would try to
thermal up after finishing, so that would have to be addressed somehow
(no thermalling in the finish cylinder?). Otherwise, fly what you
think is the optimum final glide and make it work. Simple. Perhaps.

This way the JJs and newbies could finish at their desired 500' (or
more), and proceed liesurely to the pattern, while us crazed maniacs
could risk life and limb to shine our a**es for the crowd of adoring
groupies via spectacular beat-ups. Got to find some use for those big
contest numbers under the wing that cost so much.

Heck, JJ, we'll probably kill ourselves off pretty quickly (along with
assorted burning worms) so your problem will be solved!

Oh, and with regards to Dick Butler's comment on slow final glides -
doesn't he fly an extended-wing ASW-22? (The ETA-biter?) That would
tend to make you fly a slow final glide, wouldn't it. Of course, it's
probably on final glide when it starts....

Great conversation, all in all.

When I went to Tonopah several years back, I noticed that Death Valley
was on the turnpoint list. I saw an oppotunity for diamond altitude in
thermal... but even better, I really enjoyed the notion that you could
have a save below sea level and some 6000 feet below the home drome.
Never got the chance, thankfully, to sample DV, but it was an
interesting notion. I'd still like to log an "underwater" save.

In article ,
Fred Mueller wrote:

Bruce Hoult wrote:
In article ,
Fred Mueller wrote:


Now lets say you've arrived over the
end of the field opposite the direction of landing and you're at 400
feet and 55 knots. You have been sweating the glide for miles and to
land straight ahead into traffic you are now in a high energy situation
to get down and stopped without rolling too far into the oncoming
traffic.


Going downwind at 400 ft at the departure end of the field?

That's 200 ft higher and a 180 degree turn better off than the rope
breaks that we routinely expect pre-solo pilots to cope with!

From an energy standpoint there is no problem at least not a low energy
problem, there is now a high energy problem. Imagine yourself at 400
feet on the downwind threshold. Where are you going to land on that
runway? Now imagine a half dozen or more gliders coming at you landing
from the opposite direction and some of those gliders intend to land
long.

Why on earth would you land downwind from such a position?

Angle off to the pattern side of the runway a little, fly downwind until
you get to 200 ft (more than 2 km unless there is sink) or the end of
the runway, do a 180 and land with the other traffic.

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

Sergio Colacevich (C2) made a remote start out of Soar Truckee at
Bridgeport, Ca (~80 nm away!), flew to Death Valley, spoilered down to 1200'
msl (!) thermalled away, went to 17,900' on the White mountains, and
returned for a landing at Bridgeport.

All 3 diamonds in one flight, without wave, and without exceeding 18,000',
from a departure airport at 5,900 msl. I was the official observer.

That save was 4,700' "underwater".
-Bob Korves

wrote in message
oups.com...
When I went to Tonopah several years back, I noticed that Death Valley
was on the turnpoint list. I saw an oppotunity for diamond altitude in
thermal... but even better, I really enjoyed the notion that you could
have a save below sea level and some 6000 feet below the home drome.
Never got the chance, thankfully, to sample DV, but it was an
interesting notion. I'd still like to log an "underwater" save.

Wow! Got your final glide calculations that badly
wrong?

Not really, ideally I would have reached redline just before crossing
the finish line, but Ephrata had a particularly ugly set-up. The finish
line was located in the middle of the ramp, so after finishing one was
forced to make an emmediate climbing 180 turn and fly 1/2 mile back to
set-up for a landing on the ramp. That day I believe I crossed the line
at about 100 feet and 145 knots. Needed every bit of that energy too,
in order to make it back to the entry point for landing. The PW-5 was
flying slow because he needed to conserve everything he had in order to
do the same thing.

Thankfully, Ephrata saw the light and went with the 500 foot-1 mile
cylinder the next year. Made everything sooooo much easier, just
pull-up, slow-up, turn down-wind for the ramp. Make a radio call if you
saw others near by. The difference in anxiety level was like day and
night and I was able to save all that testosterone for the bedroom.
;) JJ

Actually, in thinking about it I have done about 5-10 "underwater" (if
underwater can be defined as below takeoff) saves. It is not that unusual
when flying out of a 5,900 msl airport (Truckee) with lower terrain nearby.
None like Sergio's 4,700' though!
-Bob Korves

wrote in message
oups.com...
When I went to Tonopah several years back, I noticed that Death Valley
was on the turnpoint list. I saw an oppotunity for diamond altitude in
thermal... but even better, I really enjoyed the notion that you could
have a save below sea level and some 6000 feet below the home drome.
Never got the chance, thankfully, to sample DV, but it was an
interesting notion. I'd still like to log an "underwater" save.

In article .com,
wrote:

Thankfully, Ephrata saw the light and went with the 500 foot-1 mile
cylinder the next year. Made everything sooooo much easier, just
pull-up, slow-up, turn down-wind for the ramp. Make a radio call if you
saw others near by. The difference in anxiety level was like day and
night and I was able to save all that testosterone for the bedroom.

Um.

Isn't it the others nearby that you *didn't* see that the radio call is
for?

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

John Sinclair wrote:
Oh yeah? I was driving hard for the finish line at
Ephrata, 1/2 mile out, 500 feet and 145 knots when
I almost nailed a PW-5 at 500 feet doing an estimated
60 knots. All happened so fast I had no time to react.
Luckily I went just over him. Another gooood reason
to employ the finish cylinder, especially with sports
class machines in the contest.

This exact same situation will happen with the cylinder...

You have a conservative glide for 500' + margin at the edge of the
cylinder while flying your Lingus III. For the last 20 miles you've
been flying in lift streets, so at 3-4 miles out from the edge, you
have Mc set to 9.9 and still high. The Guy in the Bowlus is putting
along at max L/D and aiming for 500' + some margin as well. Somewhere
out there, you'll be passing him like he's going backwards. Granted,
the collision will be a bit higher, so maybe there will be time to bail
out safely.

-Tom

At 00:30 07 May 2005, wrote:
The difference in anxiety level was like day and
night and I was able to save all that testosterone
for the bedroom.
;) JJ


Too much information JJ - you're not going to do one
of your accident reports on that are you?

;-)