Finish lines

I rest my case.

Bruce Hoult wrote:
snip

Why on earth would you land downwind from such a position?

Angle off to the pattern side of the runway a little, fly downwind until
you get to 200 ft (more than 2 km unless there is sink) or the end of
the runway, do a 180 and land with the other traffic.

Isn't it the others nearby that you *didn't* see that
the radio call is
for?

No, Bruce.
In a contest normal radio calls are suspended and only
conflicts are called out. ie, JJ's on down-wind, I'm
#3, got the guy turning final, etc. We should all be
aware of those present in the area because we made
the 4 mile call and the JJ's in the gate, call.
JJ

At 01:00 07 May 2005, 5z wrote:

John Sinclair wrote:
Oh yeah? I was driving hard for the finish line at
Ephrata, 1/2 mile out, 500 feet and 145 knots when
I almost nailed a PW-5 at 500 feet doing an estimated
60 knots. All happened so fast I had no time to react.
Luckily I went just over him. Another gooood reason
to employ the finish cylinder, especially with sports
class machines in the contest.

This exact same situation will happen with the cylinder...

You have a conservative glide for 500' + margin at
the edge of the
cylinder while flying your Lingus III. For the last
20 miles you've
been flying in lift streets, so at 3-4 miles out from
the edge, you
have Mc set to 9.9 and still high. The Guy in the
Bowlus is putting
along at max L/D and aiming for 500' + some margin
as well. Somewhere
out there, you'll be passing him like he's going backwards.
Granted,
the collision will be a bit higher, so maybe there
will be time to bail
out safely.

-Tom

Tom, I was responding to OC's statement that this situation
will never happen in the finish line, so I gave an
example of it happening. Sure it can happen in both
gates.
JJ

This way the JJs and newbies could finish at their desired 500' (or
more), and proceed liesurely to the pattern, while us crazed maniacs
could risk life and limb to shine our a**es for the crowd of adoring
groupies via spectacular beat-ups.

Heck, JJ, we'll probably kill ourselves off pretty quickly (along
with
assorted burning worms) so your problem will be solved!

Do I hear a knucke-draggin' Neanderthal outside the cave? Wanten' to
know if old JJ can come out and play? You're a figher jock, Kirt, tell
me something; Would you rather drive over the target and drop an irom
bomb on it or toss a GPS guided hummer at it?

I for one, have had enough of that "drivin'-over-the-target" business
and I'm happy we can now accomplish the same mission by simply dialing
in the GPS coordinates and fling that clever little thing at the target
from a mile away.
;) JJ

JJ you've definitely lost your Mojo . Old age and wrinkles
have clearly diluted your testosterone to a mere wisp
of their former glory..

As I see it, gate finishes (done properly) are terrific
fun.

Cylinder finishes are a relatively tedious 'non-event'
by comparison. How could anything so BORING be dangerous?


But, for every 'uneventful fun' gate finish I've also
had a 'glad we finished at 500' today' experience in/near
the pattern, especially on large airfields with only
1 runway option with a large fleet.

Which brings me to my point; a safe finish is done
in the context of the site and the weather and the
traffic situation. Some sites and events are MUCH safer
with a cylinder finish. I dont think many sites are
inherently very safe for gate finishes, except those
like Avenal which tend to run downwind finishes with
a pullup & 180 to final. (which I confess i really
enjoy). Here, safety is aided by thoughtful task planning.
Antics like 'hooking the gate' are absurd; POST type
tasks definitely call out for a cylinder finish unless
a steering turnpoint is used.

I think its undeniable that cylinder finishes are (in
general) safer than low gate finishes. Its possible
to kill yourself in almost any situation but using
that as an argument against change doesnt really cut
it. I like both finish types. But the older I get,
the more precious my hide becomes.

Just my 2 cents; trying to stay out of a life or death
struggle to determine who is right.

Kind Regards

Peter Deane (2T)


At 13:30 07 May 2005, wrote:


This way the JJs and newbies could finish at their
desired 500' (or
more), and proceed liesurely to the pattern, while
us crazed maniacs
could risk life and limb to shine our a**es for the
crowd of adoring
groupies via spectacular beat-ups.

Heck, JJ, we'll probably kill ourselves off pretty
quickly (along
with
assorted burning worms) so your problem will be solved!

Do I hear a knucke-draggin' Neanderthal outside the
cave? Wanten' to
know if old JJ can come out and play? You're a figher
jock, Kirt, tell
me something; Would you rather drive over the target
and drop an irom
bomb on it or toss a GPS guided hummer at it?

I for one, have had enough of that 'drivin'-over-the-target'
business
and I'm happy we can now accomplish the same mission
by simply dialing
in the GPS coordinates and fling that clever little
thing at the target
from a mile away.
;) JJ

Peter Deane wrote:
JJ you've definitely lost your Mojo . Old age and wrinkles
have clearly diluted your testosterone to a mere wisp
of their former glory..

Hi Peter,
Just had a physical, Doc played with the family jewels, got the finger
wave, everything checked out OK.
During our little chat, with me sitting naked on the exam taple, Doc
said, You haven't been in for 5 years, so why now?

I need another prescription for Viagra.

He handed me 2 free samples and said, see you in 5 years.

;) JJ

Hi JJ;

Well look on the bright side; at least you wont roll
out of bed so often :-)


I need another prescription for Viagra.

He handed me 2 free samples and said, see you in 5
years.

;) JJ

JJ, you've got the wrong comparison!

Would you rather bring your four-ship down initial and pitch out into a
nice tight pattern, rolling out of your final turn just as you touch
down, where everybody can see it and appreciate the beauty of it, or
skulk back via an ASLAR, dragging your wingmen and creeping in the last
ten miles with the gear down at 170 knots. Yeah, that's manly!

Racing is about fun, dropping HE is a job - and I'm all for giving
every swinging richard a load of GBU-38s and a long list of very
special coordinates and turning them loose.

Just remember to keep the targeting pod on the impact point so you can
get some good CNN video...

Kirk (that's with 2 K's)

Morning Kirk (with 2 K's)
When I was a staff puke at Langley (DOE) we worked a proposal to stop
doing the overhead, pitch-out pattern because of safety considerations.
The conclusion was it should be retained because it was the fastest way
to get 4 ships back on the ground. It's also very enjoyable to watch.

The finish gate is very enjoyable to watch, but whers the need? Why, we
don't even have a guy down there with a stop watch any more. It's all
for show.

We've beat this thing to death, lets go fly,
JJ (with 2 J's)

wrote:
JJ, you've got the wrong comparison!

Would you rather bring your four-ship down initial and pitch out into
a
nice tight pattern, rolling out of your final turn just as you touch
down, where everybody can see it and appreciate the beauty of it, or
skulk back via an ASLAR, dragging your wingmen and creeping in the
last
ten miles with the gear down at 170 knots. Yeah, that's manly!

Racing is about fun, dropping HE is a job - and I'm all for giving
every swinging richard a load of GBU-38s and a long list of very
special coordinates and turning them loose.

Just remember to keep the targeting pod on the impact point so you
can
get some good CNN video...

Kirk (that's with 2 K's)

At 14:00 09 May 2005, wrote:

Morning Kirk (with 2 K's)
When I was a staff puke at Langley (DOE) we worked
a proposal to stop
doing the overhead, pitch-out pattern because of safety
considerations.
The conclusion was it should be retained because it
was the fastest way
to get 4 ships back on the ground. It's also very enjoyable
to watch.


Made a career out of taking the fun out eh JJ? ;-)

I think someone said the gate is more efficient at
getting gliders on the ground because of more obvious
sequencing. Guess the Air Force proved it for us.

Can't fly my desk so I'll rattle JJ's cage one more
time...

See you at the cylinder!

9B