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#1
September 6th 04, 04:07 PM
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"ArtKramr" wrote
They will say anything. They will but all they will do is give tax cuts to their rich their rich friends and avoid military duty while they send others out to die. they send Then they will reward corporations for sending jobs overseas. they will Worst administration in American history. It's all "their" fault 
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#2
September 6th 04, 05:25 PM
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In article ,
Jack writes: On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 17:35:38 GMT, "Thomas J. Paladino Jr." wrote: Bush did that. I would probably argue that Bush's 3 years as a fighter pilot were both more dangerous and of a greater overall service to his country than Kerry's 3 months as a Swiftie. And then there's the fact that Kerry pretty obviously gamed the system to get out of his tour early. LOL.....sure, you could argue it, but you'd be wrong. An interceptor unit in Texas flying soon to be obsolete aircraft was not exactly the 'Tip of the Spear' of national defense. Better get youself a map, then, son, and a copy of "Air Force Combat Wings: Lineage and Histories, 1947-1977", Charles Ravenstein, ed. Government Printing Office, Washingron, DC, 1984, GPS Stock Number 008-070-00519-1, ISBM 0912799129 and "Prelude to the Total Force: Air National Guard. 1943-1969", Charles J, Gross, Government Printing Office, Washington, DC, 1984 You'll find the following interesting facts: Since 1955, all ANG Fighter Interceptor Squadrons were required to meed the same training. readiness, adn availability standards as Active Component FIS's including having airplanes on Zulu Alert (5-minute alert) at all times. Trom the 1st of each Calendatr year, here's a listing of the USAF/ANG Air Defence units in the Southeastern U.S., back to the Texas Gulf Coast. 1968: USAF: 319th FIS, Homestead AFB, FL, F-104A 444th FIS, Charleston AFB, SC, F-101B 4780th ADW Perrin AFB, TX, F-102A (Training unit, with alert commitment) Air Defence Weapons Center, Tyndall AFB, F-102, F0191B, F0106 (Training unit, with alert comittment) ANG: 111th FIS, TX ANG, Ellington AFB, TX, F-102A 122nd FIS, LA ANG, NAS New Orleans, LA, F-102A 157th FIS SC ANG, MacEntire ANGB, SC, F-102A 159th FIS, FL AND, Thomas Cole Imeson AP, F-102A 182nd FIS TX ANG, Kelly AFB, TX F-102A During the tail end of the Johnson Administration, there was a huge draw-down of USAF AIr Defence Assets. This left: 1969: USAF: 4780th ADW, Perrin AFB, TX (F-102 RTU) ADWC, Tyndall AFD, FL (Air Defence Tactics school) ANG: 111th FIS, TX AND, Ellingron AFB, TX, F-102A 122nd FIS, LA ANG, NAS New Orleans, LA, F-102A 157th FIS, SC ANG, MacEntire ANGB, SC, F-102A 159th FIS, FL AND, Thomas Cole Imeson AP, F-102A 182nd FIS, TX ANG, Kelly AFB, TX F-102A The ANG's role increased as we went into the 1970s: 1970: USAF: 4780th ADW, Perrin AFB, TX (F-102 RTU) ADWC, Tyndall AFD, FL (Air Defence Tactics school) ANG: 111th FIS, TX AND, Ellingron AFB, TX, F-102A 122nd FIS, LA ANG, NAS New Orleans, LA, F-102A 157th FIS, SC ANG, MacEntire ANGB, SC, F-102A 159th FIS, FL AND, Thomas Cole Imeson AP, F-102A Things stayed pretty much the same, until late 1971, when the 4780th ADW closed up shop at Perring AFB, and _all_ F-102 training was the responsibility of the 111th FIS, TX ANG. Which leaves in, in 1972, with the following: USAF: ADWC, Tyndall AFD, FL (Air Defence Tactics school) ANG: 111th FIS, TX AND, Ellingron AFB, TX, F-102A - F-101B 157th FIS, SC ANG, MacEntire ANGB, SC, F-102A 159th FIS, FL AND, Thomas Cole Imeson AP, F-102A Note that at the time, there was, in fact, a very real threat to teh U.S. coast of the Gulf of Mexico - both from the Cuban FRAC Il-28 jet bomber regiment based at San Cristobal, (And, as it turned out, nuclear capable - we hadn't known the the Soviets had sent a nuclear delivery specialist Il-28 squadron to Cuba as part of their buildup that caused the Cuban Missile Crisis, and that the airplanes hadn't been removed when the missiles were withdrawn, and from the Soviet Tu-95s which rotated through Cuba on a regular basis all through the 1960s through the 1980s. Tht may not seem to be very much to you - but if you've got nothing to counter them with, they're damned effective. As for the F-102 being obsolete, or "Second Line", it's worth noting that the USAF, at that time, had 3 F-102 Squadrons in Southeast Asia (Two of which had transferred from the Continental U.S.), 6 in Europe, and several in the Continental U.S., Alaska, and Iceland. (Note that many of the F-102 pilots in Soatheast Asia and Europe were ANG Pilots posted as individuals under the Palace Alert program. For an obsolete airplane, it stayed in the hot spots for an awfully long time. Bush was in a chamgaigne unit to avoid the draft. Plain and simple. However, he couldn't even honorably complete that cushy mission without disappearing for a year. Here's a hint - the airplane doesn't know or care if you're rich or poor, or if you think someone's got political pull. It's just as ready to kill you no matter what. Pull _might_ get you into an ANG unit. (And the idea of a former Republican Congressman having being able to pull strings in Johnson-dominated Texas is so bizzare that the Twilight Zone wouldn't have filmed it) But it won't get you through UPT, it won't get you through Transition Training, and it won't get you Mission Qualified on the aircraft. The macine doesn't care - rich or poor, if you screw up, you're dead. What it won't tolerate is stupidity. When mandatory drug testing was implemented as part of all flight physicals, Bush refused to take his required physical and grounded himself. Shortly afterwards he disappeared. You connect the dots. Mandatory drug testing didn't start until 1974-75, after Bush had completed his service. You seem, like a lot of kids today, to have problems with this "chronology" thing - the idea that anything that occurred before you were born didn't happen in a bizzare jumble of simultanaety. All his life Bush has had others to make excuses for him and cover up his failures. That still holds true today. To know the neocon chickenhawks.... watch what they do .... not what they say...... Jack Whereas you do nothing, and say nothing. Thet pretty much says it. -- Pete Stickney A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many bad measures. -- Daniel Webster
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#3
September 7th 04, 03:29 PM
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#4
September 7th 04, 06:30 PM
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"Jack" wrote in message ... LOL.... well my friend, that was a rather lengthy diatribe that said very little and proved nothing concerning the point of the original comment. To set the record straight, the real threat of airborne invasion during the cold war was always from the north, thus NORAD. The "North" of NORAD refers to the continent of North America, not to the direction from which an attack may come. Trying to make a couple of aircraft in Cuba sound like a viable threat is really grasping for straws. However, in the extremely unlikely event of a couple Cuban aircraft 'invading' the U.S.... Southern Command and interceptor units out of Florida would have been tasked, not some champaign unit in Texas. Southern Command is responsible for Central and South America. Texas and Florida are in North America. By the way, you'll find most airbases, regular, Guard, and Reserve, built on level open country. Makes for easier runway construction. Scoring the lowest possible passing score, 25%, on his pilots aptitude test, then leap frogging in front of 500 other qualified applicants who applied for slots before he did wasn't simply a 'stroke of luck' for George W. Bush! There were 500 other qualified applicants for pilot slots in the 111th FIS at that time? What hard evidence do you have of that?
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#5
September 7th 04, 09:39 PM
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#6
September 8th 04, 02:06 AM
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In article ,
Jack writes: On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 12:25:04 -0400, (Peter Stickney) wrote: snip - Air Defence Command ORBAT for the U.S. Southeast, 1968-1972 LOL.... well my friend, that was a rather lengthy diatribe that said very little and proved nothing concerning the point of the original comment. To set the record straight, the real threat of airborne invasion during the cold war was always from the north, thus NORAD. Trying to make a couple of aircraft in Cuba sound like a viable threat is really grasping for straws. However, in the extremely unlikely event of a couple Cuban aircraft 'invading' the U.S.... Southern Command and interceptor units out of Florida would have been tasked, not some champaign unit in Texas. Yes, F-102's served in Viet Nam, as did F-100's, O-2's, even A-1Skyraiders. All were considered obsolete aircraft but fit a special niche requirement. No matter how you attempt to spin it.... George W. Bush was in that unit specifically to avoid combat. I've been to a World's Fair, a Picnic, and a Rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I've seen come across a monitor. You are aware, are you not, that NORAD stands for North American Air Defence - that's North America, as in the continent that stretches from the Isthmus of Panama to beyond the Arctic Circle. It was, at the time, charged with the defence against air attacks of the entire United States and Canada. (As in it is a dual-nation command, which encompasses all US and Candadian Air Defence assets on the continent. Back in those days, it included the USAF's Air Defence Command, The RCAF, (And later, the small stub of CANFORCE) the odd U.S. Navy squadron or two, and the U.S. Army's Surface-to-Air missile batteries.) While the direct route from the Soviet Untion was, indeed, over the Pole, it was also the least likely approach to have any success. Soviet bombers would have been picked up above the Artic Circle by the DEW Line, giving at least two hour's warning. They'd have been intercepted as they crossed into the contiguous radar coverage of the Mid-Canada Line, wnd been subject to interception for another 2 hours or so before reaching their targets. It's rather doubtful that the Soviets placed a lot of stock on their success in using that route. An approach more likely to meet with success (as in bombs on target) was to stage airplanes out of Cuba. Which, in fact, they did. Now, while the Il-28 may not have been the Hottest Rock in the sky, taht really doean't matter much if you've got nothing there to intercept them with. An H-bomb on New Orleans, Galveston, or Houston is going to do as much damage if it was delivered by an Il-28 as it would if it was delivered by an ICBM. If you had the brains to look at a map, you'd see that Cuba isn't a single speck on the map, but is about 700 miles long, from East to West, and is pretty well situated to cover the entire U.S. Gulf Coast. It's also worth pointing out that on several occasions, Cuban Military aircraft have, indeed penetrated into U.S. Airspace, including a MiG-17 that landed at Key West, and an An-24 that suddenly showed up in the traffic pattern in New Orleans. These actions pointed out the need for maintaining soem air defence presence in the Southeastern U.S. What you missed, btw, was the fact that since 1955, an integral part of all U.S. Air Defence assets has been the Guard. Since the late 1960s, they've far and away provided the majority of airplanes on alert, and since the ADTAC was dissolved, they're pretty much it. They aren't amateurs. They train to the same standards as the Active Compnent types, and are measured against them. Given their performance at stuff like the FIghter Weapons Meets (Willian Tell), where Guard units end up winning as often as not, one could claim that they're on th ewhole more proficient at their particular tasks than the Active Component types. (That's not too surprising, nor is it a slap against the Active Component - You've got a large cadre of experienced, prior service pilots and maintainers, most of whom have worked together for years. That's tough to beat) Southern Command was, at that time, a liason unit, tasked with teaching Central American nations how to deal with whatever insurgents they were dealing with. (When they werent' whacking on each other over quarter-final matches in the World Cup) It was Headquartered in Panama, and has as its flying assets, One Air Commando Squadron (A mix of C-46s and U-10s) Bush was in a chamgaigne unit to avoid the draft. Plain and simple. However, he couldn't even honorably complete that cushy mission without disappearing for a year. Here's a hint - the airplane doesn't know or care if you're rich or poor, or if you think someone's got political pull. It's just as ready to kill you no matter what. Pull _might_ get you into an ANG unit. (And the idea of a former Republican Congressman having being able to pull strings in Johnson-dominated Texas is so bizzare that the Twilight Zone wouldn't have filmed it) But it won't get you through UPT, it won't get you through Transition Training, and it won't get you Mission Qualified on the aircraft. The machine doesn't care - rich or poor, if you screw up, you're dead. What it won't tolerate is stupidity. Scoring the lowest possible passing score, 25%, on his pilots aptitude test, then leap frogging in front of 500 other qualified applicants who applied for slots before he did wasn't simply a 'stroke of luck' for George W. Bush! You're either extremely naive or so blinded by partisanship you refuse to acknowledge the obvious. No, the aircraft doesn't care if you're rich or poor or have political connections. However, some of those in positions of authority, who made the selections as to who got assigned to the few available slots obviously did. The aircraft is simply a machine, it didn't do the recruiting! Also, if you're implying Texas politics isn't and hasn't been 'bizzare' for the past 100 years, you have a lot to learn about Texas and politics. How many of those "500 applicants" (Although nobody counts applicants - maybe it was 5, or 50, or 50 million) were willing to enter a long term (6 year) commitment including two years active duty? The guys looking to avoid the draft were signing on for the 6 Month + 2 year (IIRC) hitch as an EM. Whatever his score was, it doesn't matter. He graduated from UPT, he went through the Instrument School and the F-102 qualification at Perrin, and he was rated FMQ. Fully Mission Qualified is Fully Mission Qualified. You can't fake it. (Well you can if you're the Squadron Political Officer, but that was only in the IA-PVO) So teach me about Texans and politics. Considering that I've been accused by Ross Perot of trying to sabotage his daughter's wedding... (How _do_ you sabotage a Texan's wedding? Park the pickups too close to the hog spit? Put horse **** in Lone Star bottles? How could you tell?) Truth be told, I'm a fairly apolitical rent-a-thug. I've done security and protection work for candidates of both parties. When mandatory drug testing was implemented as part of all flight physicals, Bush refused to take his required physical and grounded himself. Shortly afterwards he disappeared. You connect the dots. Mandatory drug testing didn't start until 1974-75, after Bush had completed his service. You seem, like a lot of kids today, to have problems with this "chronology" thing - the idea that anything that occurred before you were born didn't happen in a bizzare jumble of simultanaety. Mandatory drug testing in conjunction with flight physicals, both in the CONUS and overseas began in April, 1972. The flight physical George W. Bush dodged was scheduled in August, 1972. I was in the active duty Air Force, on flying status at the time, and am well aware of the dates, thank you. That 'chronology' thing is a bitch, isn't it. Uhm, if you're not on flying status (GWB wasn't in 1972, since he wasn't going to in long enough to justify transitioning to the F-101Bs that his unit was receiving, and he wasn't an IP on the F-102 (The 111th FIS was the RTU for the F-102 for the entire Air Force at that time) then he wouldn't be taking a flight physical. Put-up time, sport. Lay your cards down. If you were in fact what you claim, you wouldn't, with a straight face, be making some of the claims you are. To know the neocon chickenhawks.... watch what they do .... not what they say...... Jack Whereas you do nothing, and say nothing. Thet pretty much says it. Says what??.... LOL.... you amateur history revisionists crack me up! To quote the Bard, you are "A mass of sound and fury, signifying nothing." If you're a shill for the DNC's Internet campaign, they ought to be asking for their money back. -- Pete Stickney A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many bad measures. -- Daniel Webster
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#7
September 6th 04, 07:53 PM
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#9
September 7th 04, 04:07 PM
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On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 08:40:24 -0600, Jack wrote:
Random drug testing of the entire force and mandatory drug testing in conjunction with flight physicals, at both CONUS and overseas bases, was implemented in April, 1972. Not as command prerogative, but by Air Force directive following DoD guidance. George W. Bush was filling a flying slot until failing to appear for his annual flight physical in August, 1972. And yes, I have done the research, thank you...I was also there at the time. Jack, U.S. Air Force, Retired Then, Jack, you also know that random drug testing was not done in conjunction with a flight physical. That wouldn't have been effective at all, since the flight physical was a scheduled event (at the discretion of the individual during the 90 day window before his birthday), and therefore easy to beat by abstaining from drugs for a week beforehand. (The discrimination of the drug test in those days was nowhere near what it is today.) Let's also note that the physical in '72 was more than four years after George W. Bush entered USAF pilot training, was at a time when his unit mission had changed from operational to qualification training and in which he was not going to be transitioned to the F-101 or upgraded to IP in the Deuce since he did not have sufficient retainability. You'll also recall that officers in non-flying billets got a physical every three years rather than an annual flight physical and if you weren't on flying status you could let your physical lapse and an aeronautical order (routine) would be issued to remove you from status. I've done the research as well as being in the business. In April of '72 I was at Luke checking out in the F-4C and in August of '72 I was at Korat flying into NVN daily. Where were you at that time? (Since you brought it up.) Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" "Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights" Both from Smithsonian Books ***www.thunderchief.org
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#10
September 7th 04, 11:03 PM
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On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 08:40:24 -0600, Jack wrote:
On 06 Sep 2004 18:53:52 GMT, (B2431) wrote: From: Jack When mandatory drug testing was implemented as part of all flight physicals, Bush refused to take his required physical and grounded himself. Drug testing is a comman function, not medical. They would not have tested for drugs suring a flight physical. Bush was no longer filling a flying slot so no flight physical was required. Then again, you probably already knew that since you have done such comprehensive research. Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired Random drug testing of the entire force and mandatory drug testing in conjunction with flight physicals, at both CONUS and overseas bases, was implemented in April, 1972. Not as command prerogative, but by Air Force directive following DoD guidance. George W. Bush was filling a flying slot until failing to appear for his annual flight physical in August, 1972. And yes, I have done the research, thank you...I was also there at the time. I was there in 1972 on the enlisted side and don't remember "Random drug testing of the entire force" until sometime around 1980. Didn't really seem to get going until after 1975 and then it was airman under four at first and then age I believe was another point. Around 1980 it was everyone. I know I handed out the slips for random testing to some of my first termers, but never to anyone else even after the change up to 1982 when I retired.
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