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Thermal right, land left



 
 
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  #21  
Old March 10th 04, 06:11 PM
Shirley
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bandit111964 (John) wrote:
I myself can turn equally well right or left. But I
have noticed I prefer thermalling to the right, and
landing to the left. Having over 250 flights, I have
plenty of experience going both directions, but
have developed preference for turning one way or
another. (as an aside, I prefer left turns on my
motorcycle too....no reason, just like them better).
[snip]
Seems like people do what they practice, so it
would be hard to isolate the slow turns in a thermal
with the faster turns while landing unless something
fundamentally is different. [snip]


What is "fundamentally different" is that it is landing, not thermaling ...
even students/new pilots should fully understand the difference. Don't see how
one could confuse the two unless their mind is on something completely
unrelated to flying, and I'm not a CFIG, but I don't think going in one
direction or another consistently is a solution for not paying full attention
to what you're doing.

I know this will sound weird to you guys, especially with the stigma attached
to women pilots ... but going to put on the armor and contribute it anyway:

As a figure skating instructor turned glider pilot, I can say that it is an
accepted fact that few people do things equally in both directions. That's not
to say that the "bad" direction can't be done with great proficiently--it
certainly CAN--but everyone has one direction that feels more natural and
comfortable than the other. Before anyone puts on skates, we ask people to spin
on one foot (on the ground, not the ice)--whichever way they *instinctively*
turn (a bigger percentage of us instinctively turn to the left), that's
considered their "natural direction". In skating like in flying, we work to
make both sides equally competent, but jumps and spins are developed in the
person's natural direction.

When I began flying gliders, I was not surprised to note that when my
instructor said "Show me a turning stall, either direction," I almost always
went left first, likely just because that direction feels more natural to
me--not because I do them more competently that way.

Left alone, most people practice things in the "good" (natural/comfortable)
direction much more regularly than they will in the unnatural direction.
Ideally, people practice the unnatural direction enough that they can perform
maneuvers without hesitation in a solid, efficient and competent way. Sometimes
the so-called "bad" direction even winds up being more technically correct
because the person pays closer attention to that direction to get it right, and
sloppy, bad habits are more likely to form in the direction the person feels
comfortable enough to get a little lazy in! And I've heard motorcyclists
express that same tendency to prefer turns in one direction over another also.

I consider myself a "new pilot" ... licensed for a year. I remember conditions
were such that the majority of my initial landing instruction was done in one
direction. When conditions changed, it felt "backwards" to fly the pattern and
land the other way, and I remember the puzzled looks and chuckles from seasoned
pilots -- "Why? it's the SAME thing!!" At some point long before the checkride,
either direction became "normal" as it should, since conditions favoring one
direction over another can change during any flight. As for thermaling, I have
noticed that whichever direction I begin thermaling in any flight (initial
choice based on where I think the thermal is by the clues, not by which
direction I prefer to turn), that seems to be the direction I end up thermaling
for most of that flight ... but there doesn't seem to be any proclivity for
thermaling in either direction overall.

Just a little food for thought. Okay, you guys ... flame away -- "these damn
women pilots, comparing our soaring to figure skating! ... why isn't she baking
cookies?!"
:-)
--Shirley

  #23  
Old March 10th 04, 06:49 PM
Bill Gribble
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I qualify as "low-time" by anybody's standards. Ab inito, just about to
make my 50th launch this weekend. I'd guess I'll probably go solo some
time in the next couple of months at my current rate of progress -
basically when I stop consistently scaring the guy in the back seat

At our airfield, the Duty Instructor of the day tends to express a
"preferred circuit" for people to follow dependent upon prevailing wind
conditions. We have two crossed runways, 03-210 and 90-270, so, subject
to the wind direction, that's potentially eight different patterns, even
without taking the end of day hanger-flights into account.

Yes, it feels odd to fly off runway 03 when for the last few weeks
prevailing winds have had us using 210. Even odder when a westerly puts
us onto 90. Through preference I think I'd take a right-hand circuit.
But it isn't really that much of an issue even at my level of
experience. I'll take a left-hand circuit if circumstance or position
suggests it better to do so. In much the same way I'll take a left-hand
bend or junction on a bike with little concern, or reverse right into a
parking bay at the supermarket in my car.

Point is I haven't been taught to make either thermalling turns or
circuit turns. I've been taught to fly the aircraft, at all times, to
never fly low and slow and to make my final turn onto approach
well-banked and at a safe height because, amongst other reasons, a
well-banked turn looses less height than a shallow turn and at this
final point in proceedings it's much easier and safer to have to deal
with too much height than with not enough.

I've got to confess, (and I truly mean no offence when I say this) from
where I'm standing, the suggestion of teaching a student to always make
"thermalling turns" to the right and "pattern turns" to the left seemed
on the surface to be such a ridiculous idea that I had to read it a few
times to be certain it was intended at a serious suggestion and not some
sort of silly joke. On reflection and deeper consideration, the
suggestion really hasn't gained any more credibility

--
Bill Gribble

/---------------------------------------\
| http://www.cotswoldgliding.co.uk |
| http://www.scapegoatsanon.demon.co.uk |
\---------------------------------------/
  #24  
Old March 10th 04, 07:16 PM
Eric Greenwell
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Jim Vincent wrote:

some pilots are not "in the zone" with their gliders, and could not
determine a "lifted wing" if they had rely on it to find a therma



I was recently enlightened by Tom Knauff that the lifted wing approach only
works about half the time.


If this were true, then that implies turning towards the lifted wing
theory is no better than chance: just flip a coin. But, we know that's
not true, because I and other pilots routinely improve our results by
turning towards the lifted wing.

Perhaps the explanation given above doesn't reflect what Tom actually
does, since I'm sure he is improving his results at least as much as I
am. Or maybe it's a reflection of his grasp of probability, as in: "the
chances of a rope break on tow are 50-50: it'll happen or it won't".

And no need to hyperventilate in Tom's defense, as he's heard that
before from many other people!


--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

  #25  
Old March 10th 04, 07:23 PM
F.L. Whiteley
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"Jim Vincent" wrote in message
...
some pilots are not "in the zone" with their gliders, and could not
determine a "lifted wing" if they had rely on it to find a therma


I was recently enlightened by Tom Knauff that the lifted wing approach

only
works about half the time.

Consider three sections of air: calm air, sink before a thermal, and the

lift
of the thermal itself. Imagine that you're flying along and you happen to

run
into the sink on the left wing and lift on the right wing (hand flying

really
helps here). In this case, the lifted wing approach would work; turning

into
the lifted wing would take you into the lift.

Now consider if you're flying along and run into the calm air on the left

wing
and the sink on the right wing. If you use the lifted wing approach, you

woud
turn into the calm air and away from the lift! The best course would be

to
turn into the lowered wing, drive through the sink and on into the

thermal.

So, it really makes do difference which way you turn. It matters more how

you
respond to the conditions you experince when you make the turn.

IIRC, Tom also mentions that if you turn the wrong way, you complete a 270
to fly directly back into the lift as the quickest correction.

Jim, you need to jump into the PW-2 Gapa thread.

Jim Vincent
CFIG
N483SZ


Actually posted from
TOPSPAM which is a proper munging.

Frank Whiteley


  #27  
Old March 10th 04, 07:47 PM
Jim Vincent
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Jim, you need to jump into the PW-2 Gapa thread.


Thanks Frank. I responded directly to the poster. Two weeks ago, I spoke with
the guy who bought the Gapa and we discussed many of the issues. Hopefully,
I'll get to FL sometime and get to fly it!

Jim Vincent
CFIG
N483SZ

  #28  
Old March 10th 04, 08:50 PM
John
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If we assume we all fly well (either direction), and we all understand
the importance of controlling airspeed during landing, why is the
number one pilot error that is causing injury the stall/spin while
turning to land?

Get away from the idea that you can stall all you want safely at
height, while down low, you no longer have that luxury. Get away from
the idea we all are responsible for flying the plane at all times.
The basic fact is we are all trained and should be able to land
safely.....yet, repeatedly, the same errors are being made by stalling
during the landing pattern.

Is it pilot distraction that creates a laspes in monitoring airspeed?
Or is it habit?

With any physical activity, people develop habits thru repetion. Turn
right 100 times slowly, then turn right fast...it will feel different.
Will you instinctively slow down the fast turn to match the previous
100 slow turns? I think that is very possible.

Here is a way to check your habits. Next booming day, try 10-20 turns
to right at say 40 knots, then speed up to 65 knots. Can you hold 65
knots in a right turn now? Likely, but I bet you glance at the
airspeed a little more than you did in the previous 10-20 turns.

It just seems logical to me if you spend several hours flying slow,
you will tend to continue flying slow unless you specifically make
yourself fly faster. Get distracted, and you will go right back to
flying slow. Talking habits, here.

Is this habit of flying slow contributing to the stall/spin problem
when landing?
  #29  
Old March 10th 04, 08:56 PM
Jim Vincent
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Many good points here.

I recommend establishing the pattern airspeed a few minutes before actually
entering the pattern. This gives time to get used to the sound and feel of the
pattern speed. Also, when doing turns in the pattern, I teach to monitor CAB,
for Coordinate, Airspeed, and Bank.

Jim Vincent
CFIG
N483SZ

  #30  
Old March 10th 04, 10:10 PM
ADP
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Well Shirley, you are exactly right.

And Bill, with all due respect,

"Absent a rigging error, (meaning the glider flies straight hands-off - not
forgetting the wing pins) a pilots feeling that he has a "preferred turn
direction" is a red flag warning of a general flying skill deficit that
needs professional attention.",

is just utter nonsense.

There comes a time in any pilots flying life when flying becomes mostly
automatic.
Some aren't there yet but when it happens, it gives one time to concentrate
on finesse
rather than basic execution.

In an intact flying machine, there is never an excuse for a stall spin
accident. Not during landing and not ever!

The aircraft doesn't care whether it is at 100 ft or 1000, the physics of
flying are the same.
That leaves the pilot.

Flying is relatively simple, it requires some coordination, some common
sense and the right attitude - both figuratively and literally.

The best tactic for safe flying and landing I ever heard (and we've all
heard it) is "that looks about right".

Don't worry about circuit rules, radios or even traffic, get the damn thing
on the ground safely and take care of the details later.

So don't stall and you can't spin.

Allan

"Shirley" wrote in message
...
bandit111964 (John) wrote:
I myself can turn equally well right or left. But I
have noticed I prefer thermalling to the right, and
landing to the left. Having over 250 flights, I have
plenty of experience going both directions, but
have developed preference for turning one way or
another. (as an aside, I prefer left turns on my
motorcycle too....no reason, just like them better).
[snip]




 




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