Bell 47 goes down in Muncie, IN

You shouldn't send binary files to a newsgroup that isn't chartered
for such. Or mime types for that matter.

Contact the emergency authorities that responded to the incident,
ie-fire dept, etc., and tell them you have a video. The FAA will be
in touch with them and they can tell the FAA. If you try to report it
yourself, you'll get into a major tangle of red tape. Just let them
come to you.

I tried emailing them some crash info I had on another case and I
think it just went to the bit bucket because I never heard anything
back from them.

In this case, I'm not even sure if its a reportable incident. It
sounds like the heli just autorotated to a safe landing.


Dennis.

"Neb Okla" wrote:

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C48237.1BC6EBD0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Be careful up there.

Was at the IRCHA Jamboree (a Remote Controlled Helicopter event
http://www.ircha.org/jamboree.php) and saw a Bell 47 (much like the one I
rode in last week at the Ohio State Fair).

I was filming it taking off (along with 10-20 other helicopter enthusiasts)
and it climbed and turned its tail into the wind - then we heard a loud
pop - like a backfire from the engine.

The craft went down behind a hill so I did not catch impact on video, but
was told by the event announcer that both passenger and pilot walked away,
though there was mention of an arm injury to one. Not sure how severe.

Because it was at a major helicopter event, plenty of rescuers were on the
scene very quickly - and the crash happened near the west end of a nearby
airport runway.

I'll provide an update when I get home if I can get more information.

Also, does anyone have advice on how to let the FAA know about my tape? It
has detailed footage of the helicopter as it started and took off.

Feel free to email me directly if you do not want to respond in the NG.

Thanks.

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C48237.1BC6EBD0
Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature;
name="smime.p7s"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment;
filename="smime.p7s"

Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

wrote:

You shouldn't send binary files to a newsgroup that isn't chartered
for such. Or mime types for that matter.

Dennis I agree with you one hundred percent on the binary posts.

However.... Since you are picking nits and discussing netiquette, you
just replied a short while ago to another post in this same newsgroup
and made a four line comment and then proceeded to quote over two
hundred lines of totally unecessary text.

If you wish to complain about someone's posting habits you
might want to start by checking your own habits first.

Speaking of Netiquette wrote:

However.... Since you are picking nits and discussing netiquette, you
just replied a short while ago to another post in this same newsgroup
and made a four line comment and then proceeded to quote over two
hundred lines of totally unecessary text.

Which post was that? Title ? Date?

As a general rule I most definitely don't do that, but I have been
known to make a mistake every now and then. However, I do want to see
the specific example where you say I failed to remove the majority of
the quoted text. And, considering how long I've been posting here,
two examples would be nice.

OTOH, posting a mime message with a binary attachment is a totally
different thing. That is why I said something. That guy probably had
his newsreader set up to do that with every post. If I hadn't said
something, every post from him from now on would have that binary
attachment.

Dennis.

Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

wrote in message
...

In this case, I'm not even sure if its a reportable incident. It
sounds like the heli just autorotated to a safe landing.

When you see it go behind some trees and you hear a big crunch and see bits
helicopter flying out from behind the trees and kicking up 50ft plumes of
dust as they hit the ground, I wouldn't call that "a safe landing".

I was standing about 30 feet away when it took off. The pilot, who
survived, said he was about 100 feet off the ground. Not exactly
autorotation conditions.

Photos and detailed discussion here (including a post by the pilot):

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t124254p1/

FUT: alt.security

"Speaking of Netiquette" wrote in message
...
wrote:

You shouldn't send binary files to a newsgroup that isn't chartered
for such. Or mime types for that matter.

Dennis I agree with you one hundred percent on the binary posts.

Calling an S/MIME signature a "binary post" is really absurd and missing the
point. For those of you that don't understand it, the S/MIME signature
serves the same purpose as a PGP Signature which is commonly used. A quick
search found over 2.5 million PGP signed messages that had been posted to
Usenet.

The most obvious difference (and benefit) to most users is that S/MIME
signed posts don't include a block of gibberish like this near the bottom of
each post:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6

iQCVAgUBLfp2yTwTlK+hrwANAQHKxgP/QRKje36WMpxa1mDMxDXXWgalMP8HGQl+
Qh8o9XffWrNgxr55XRt79y8CA73MbmKVEiQmN9h1tdNJpkj2mX 20yNE6+92guNXh
n7kh7yhgtustkQp6nJ3dJW6q3u4QcyuVaW0WtzpYw3tSBEO2B6 va0HNv8qLA1fDb
+Li/iT7s8qU=
=/+Si
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Instead, this information is hidden from anyone with a MIME compliant news
reader.

The signature is automatically verified by the recipient's client - and a
warning message appears if it has been altered, tampered with, or spoofed.
By the sheer nature of the process of obtaining a digital ID, we know that
the email address is valid as well.

Since the signature is tied to the email address, it makes it really easy to
block all messages from people who sign their messages by simply plonking
the sender or adding the user to your killfile.


However.... Since you are picking nits and discussing netiquette, you
just replied a short while ago to another post in this same newsgroup
and made a four line comment and then proceeded to quote over two
hundred lines of totally unecessary text.

Let's not forget that as a rule of thumb (RFC 1855), signatures (completely
different from digital signatures, despite the similar name) should be 4
lines or less.

Mr. Hawkins takes up 7 lines of space to pitch backwards anti-globalist
views against foreigners securing employment in the US.

If the members of a given newsgroup wish to enforce a set of behavioral
standards on the community of users posting to the group, it is customary to
maintain a FAQ that details such posting guidelines and to enumerate them in
the newsgroup charter.

I read the charter before posting and saw NO prohibition against posting
binaries or MIME content such as S/MIME digital signatures. Since more and
more NNTP clients are beginning to support S/MIME (Outlook Express and
Mozilla Thunderbird for starters) then this will only happen more frequently
in the future. If the consensus objects to any kind of digital signatures
then those can be specifically banned.

Things are a little twisted though when the only people complaining about a
digitally signed post are people hiding behind obfuscated email addresses.

I sign my posts (and have for years) as a service to my fellow newsgroup
members - and to protect myself from spoofing.

In private email, Mr. Hawkins made remarks complaing that my initial 6kb
post was excessively large, yet his reply was 3kb itself. This doesn't seem
very rational to me - though I wouldn't rationality from a guy that was
invoking porn and viruses as reasons for prohibiting security signatures.

Followups to alt.security

Regards,
Neb

"Neb Okla" wrote:

When you see it go behind some trees and you hear a big crunch and see bits
helicopter flying out from behind the trees and kicking up 50ft plumes of
dust as they hit the ground, I wouldn't call that "a safe landing".

I was standing about 30 feet away when it took off. The pilot, who
survived, said he was about 100 feet off the ground. Not exactly
autorotation conditions.

Obviously, the pilot has sufficient skill to get it on the ground
mostly in one piece and survive.

You probably should find the local authorities that first responded
(fire dept, etc) and tell them that you have the tape. The NTSB,
which investigates these incidents, will contact you if they want it.
My experience with these guys is that they operate as "Don't call us,
we'll call you". If you try to go direct, be prepared for a lot of
frustration and hoops to jump through.

Also, don't expect anything to happen instantly. A non-fatal hard
landing is not high on the priority list when its time to investigate.
Don't be suprised if it takes 6 months to a year for them to contact
you.

Photos and detailed discussion here (including a post by the pilot):

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t124254p1/

That link did not work for me. I think its a "members only" site and
I am not a member.

Dennis.


Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

Neb,

You are a poster boy for "Bad Netiquette". Not only are you an idiot
and don't understand what you are talking about, but you are damn rude
as well.

You wrote to me in a private email and I thought I had explained to
you why you shouldn't send binary attachments to a newsgroup not
chartered for such. I thought I had gotten that through to you, but I
guess not.

In brief, here are my responses to your non-sequitur rhetoric you
posted publicly he

1) S/MIME IS a binary attachment. That's why the mime type is
"APPLICATION" and encoded with "BASE64". The fact that you can't see
those 60-70 lines of crap doesn't mean that its not there or that its
not binary. PGP has about 4 lines, what's wrong with that?

2) The fact that you have the gall to complain about my 7 lines of
signature when you sent 60-70 for a signature really amazes me -
Notwithstanding your Anti-American comments about my signature.

3) You said I replied to a post with over 200 quoted lines. I'm still
waiting for you to provide evidence of that. I won't say I never did
that, but its not-standard for me to do so. If I did, it was by
mistake. However, your inability to provide proof says that it
probably never happened.

4) My return email address is not hidden. It may be obfuscated to
prevent spambots from getting it, but not in a way that humans can't
understand how to modify it to get the real address. The fact that
you were able to send me email proves that even stupid humans can
figure it out.

5) As for the charter of this newsgroup, do you see the word "BINARY"
or "BINARIES" in the name of this group? Did you see anything in the
charter that said "binaries allowed"? If not, then its a TEXT ONLY
newsgroup. Obviously, you are a few bricks shy of a full load if you
didn't know that. For that matter, how many binary groups are in the
Big-8 groups? Not many the last I checked. Most binary groups I
found were ALT groups.

Lastly, Neb, I will point out that this is a TEXT-ONLY group about
rotorcraft. Its nice that you are a concerned citizen with a video
tape of a helicopter that later had a hard landing and want to get it
to the proper authorities.

However, if you need an education on netiquette, then this is not the
place to get it. However, if you violate netiquette rules on the
massive scale that you did, then you are going to hear about it. You
should do a Google search on such and you'll probably find a few sites
that explain it.

Dennis.


Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

wrote in message
...
"Neb Okla" wrote:

You probably should find the local authorities that first responded
(fire dept, etc) and tell them that you have the tape. The NTSB,
which investigates these incidents, will contact you if they want it.
My experience with these guys is that they operate as "Don't call us,
we'll call you". If you try to go direct, be prepared for a lot of
frustration and hoops to jump through.

I'm just going to mail a copy to the pilot. He can decide what he wants to
do with it.


Photos and detailed discussion here (including a post by the pilot):

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t124254p1/

That link did not work for me. I think its a "members only" site and
I am not a member.

The pilot asked the forum operator to censor discussion of the crash. One
reason why I prefer not to use public forums. Stuff has a habit of
"disappearing".

Since the pilot is a friend of a friend of a friend, I'll refrain from
publicly releasing the video until I get his permission.

I do have advise for other pilots though. If you don't want your crash to
be caught on tape and put on the Internet, don't fly it around a hoard of IT
guys with digital camcorders. Being an R/C Helicopter event people meeting
this criteria were a large part of the demographic.

wrote:

Neb,

You are a poster boy for "Bad Netiquette".

Speaking of poster boys - Dennis you need to go and look in a mirror.

Not only are you an idiot and don't understand what you are talking about,

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

3) You said I replied to a post with over 200 quoted lines.

Dennis..... There you go blaming poor Neb for something he didn't do.

I CHASTISED YOU FOR QUOTING 200 LINES OF TEXT.

Looks like you can't even get your attributes right.

I'm still waiting for you to provide evidence of that.

Good Grief...... Like this group is such a hot bed of posters with all
of two posts per day that you can't go back a few days and find
your own posts and read for yourself......... sigh.

I won't say I never did that, but its not-standard for me to do so.

I always trim my posts......

If I did, it was by mistake.

And maybe poor Neb made a mistake just like you made a mistake
thinking that I am he, and he is me.

However, your inability to provide proof says that it
probably never happened.

Sorry Dennis you don't get to dodge your bullet that easy.

OK..... here it is - the subject line for you to look for
from Sunday August 15

4th flight - It wasn't pretty..

The fact that you were able to send me email proves that even
stupid humans can figure it out.

Oh Dennis Dennis Dennis..... And it was just a few paragraphs ago
that you were chastising poor Neb for being rude.

Your comments....

Not only are you an idiot and don't understand what you are
talking about, but you are damn rude as well.

Pot Kettle Black.

Obviously, you are a few bricks shy of a full load if you
didn't know that.

Dennis - I think you need to bend over and pick up some
of those fallen bricks yourself.

However, if you need an education on netiquette, then this is not the
place to get it.

Hmmmmmm..... But Dennis you don't mind giving poor Neb a lesson on
netiquette, but you don't seem to like it when I gave you a lesson
back.

In fact you want me to give you two examples of your transgressions
while you take poor old Neb to task for just one.

Your words exactly from Sunday August 15

However, I do want to see the specific example where you say
I failed to remove the majority of the quoted text.
And, considering how long I've been posting here,
two examples would be nice.

Pot Kettle Black.

However, if you violate netiquette rules on the
massive scale that you did, then you are going to hear about it.

MASSIVE SCALE..... Good grief Charlie Brown is that like SHOCK AND AWE.

You should do a Google search on such and you'll probably find
a few sites that explain it.

And you sir should take your own advice.

And if you in a charitable mood today Dennis then why don't you ditch
that obnoxious SIG file of yours.

After all why should the rest of us have to view it every time you
decide to post to this group.

As you say, this is a group for the discussion on rotorcraft and your
personal comments in your SIG file have nothing to do with the subject
at hand..... now do they.

Neb,

This is the second time that you have posted under a fake name
pretending to be somebody else.

It is clear that your primary intent is to disrupt this newsgroup. As
such, I am telling you that if you do it again, compaints will be
filed against you.

Dennis.

Speaking of Netiquette wrote:

snipped




Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm