A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Instrument Flight Rules
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

"cleared to ... when direct ..."



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old February 10th 04, 11:29 AM
Patrick Mayer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi,

Got an odd clearance the other day, on climbout from Santa Monica
(IFR but in perfect VMC): "climb and maintain 6000 when direct
Ventura". I took this to mean that someone would later clear
me direct VTU, whereupon I would climb.


My guess is: he said "c/m 6000 THEN direct Ventura" (so you'd have to climb
to 6 on your current clearance and turn after reaching 6.000)

I wonder what this clearance really meant?


Probably the best guess, whether IFR or VFR is: if you're not 100% sure what
he meant or if you understand everything correctly: ask the guy! Nobody will
grill you for that, and it is a lot less sweat in the cockpit if you sure
you're doing what the controller wants you to.

Happy flying,
Patrick


  #12  
Old February 10th 04, 02:06 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

this is an extremely important point. Can the group gurus chime in
here to sort it out?
Roy thinks "when able direct" implies the controller is assuming
responsibility for terrain clearance.
bob suggests "when able direct" implies the pilot, not the controller
is assuming responsibility for terrain clearance.
My experience is with Roy's thoughts. The few times terrain was a
factor, the controller said words to the effect as "when clear of
terrain, proceed direct XYZ.
Stan

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 18:46:30 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

In article ZLUVb.12036$032.41047@attbi_s53,
"Bob Gardner" wrote:

I'm going to quibble with Roy just a bit. "When able," in my mind, means
"when you can proceed direct without hitting anything." You can get a good
needle and still hit terrain. In this clearance, however, my guess is that
6000 feet was his minimum instrument altitude and you were good to go at
that altitude.


I certainly hope not! If 6000 was the MIA, what was the controller
doing issuing a route clearance? If John was on initial climbout, I
assume he was on a DP. How can the controller take him off the DP below
the MIA?

To get what Bob is talking about, I think the clearance needed to be
worded something like, "climb and maintain 6000, upon reaching 6000,
direct Ventura". On the other hand, if that's what the controller
wanted, it would have been simplier (and less confusing) to just issue
the altitude, and the direct Ventura once he reached it.



Bob Gardner

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
In article 1076365605.761786@sj-nntpcache-3,
"John Harper" wrote:

Got an odd clearance the other day, on climbout from Santa Monica
(IFR but in perfect VMC): "climb and maintain 6000 when direct
Ventura". I took this to mean that someone would later clear
me direct VTU, whereupon I would climb. However I never got
such a clearance, and later an evidently nervous controller called
me, cleared me to 6000', and asked me if I had the terrain in
sight (which I did, but it was getting close for IFR though not
worrying visually).

I suspect you dropped a word (or he did). It sounds like it should have
been "climb and maintain 6000. When able, direct Ventura".

I would have started a climb to 6000, taken a WAG at the heading to
Ventura, turned to that heading, and begun to tune in the VOR (or hit
direct on the GPS). Once I had a good signal, I would have tracked it
direct.




  #15  
Old February 10th 04, 07:02 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"John Harper" wrote in message
news:1076365605.761786@sj-nntpcache-3...

Got an odd clearance the other day, on climbout from Santa Monica
(IFR but in perfect VMC): "climb and maintain 6000 when direct
Ventura". I took this to mean that someone would later clear
me direct VTU, whereupon I would climb. However I never got
such a clearance, and later an evidently nervous controller called
me, cleared me to 6000', and asked me if I had the terrain in
sight (which I did, but it was getting close for IFR though not
worrying visually).

I wonder what this clearance really meant? Did it mean "when ABLE
direct", i.e. when I could receive the VOR (which I couldn't
initially although I was filed /G anyway)? Or did someone just
forget to give me the subsequent clearance?


As it is nonstandard phraseology, it's meaning cannot be known for sure.
Are you sure that's what the controller said?


  #16  
Old February 10th 04, 07:06 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
news:ZLUVb.12036$032.41047@attbi_s53...

I'm going to quibble with Roy just a bit. "When able," in my mind,
means "when you can proceed direct without hitting anything." You
can get a good needle and still hit terrain. In this clearance, however,
my guess is that 6000 feet was his minimum instrument altitude and
you were good to go at that altitude.


From the Pilot/Controller Glossary:

WHEN ABLE- When used in conjunction with ATC instructions, gives the pilot
the latitude to delay compliance until a condition or event has been
reconciled. Unlike "pilot discretion," when instructions are prefaced "when
able," the pilot is expected to seek the first opportunity to comply. Once a
maneuver has been initiated, the pilot is expected to continue until the
specifications of the instructions have been met. "When able," should not be
used when expeditious compliance is required.


  #17  
Old February 10th 04, 07:08 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

Well, if I"m in the soup, the only way I know I won't hit anything is
to trust the controllers. They aren't supposed to vector me into
terrain. Now granted I need some situational awareness, but not
to the extent that I don't need controllers and the instrument flight
rules themselves.


The only way? What about departure procedures?


  #18  
Old February 10th 04, 07:10 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"John Harper" wrote in message
news:1076387776.207455@sj-nntpcache-5...

Thanks for all the answers. This was runway 21 at SMO, heading
out over to the ocean. No DP, but standard procedure is RH
to intercept LAX315 (the coastline), then 270, vecs to VTU.


Is that what was issued in this case?


  #19  
Old February 11th 04, 03:07 AM
John Harper
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Yes.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"John Harper" wrote in message
news:1076387776.207455@sj-nntpcache-5...

Thanks for all the answers. This was runway 21 at SMO, heading
out over to the ocean. No DP, but standard procedure is RH
to intercept LAX315 (the coastline), then 270, vecs to VTU.


Is that what was issued in this case?




  #20  
Old February 11th 04, 12:05 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Newps wrote:



Absolutely he does. A controller never says to proceed direct when
able, when the "when able" part means that you have to know when you are
above the terrain. When able direct always means navigation. When you
are receiving the relavant station you may go directly to it.


It sounds like you're saying the controller cannot say "direct when able,"
then you say the controller can say "direct when able" with regards to nav
facility reception.

In the case of Santa Monica Runway 21, even though the guy was probably
pretty low when told he could proceed direct to Ventura, terrain was not a
factor. The terrain is well to the north, and northwest. The MVA is 1500
where the clearance was likely issued. A direct track to VTU doesn't get
into a higher MVA area for quite a ways, well beyond what a nominal climb
rate would overcome. The highest MVA, way down the road, is 4,000 (with a
little 4,100 area) and the pilot was cleared to 6,000.

So, he could have been at say, 1,200 and not yet able to receive VTU. Once
he did though, his slight right turn to proceed direct would not have
created a terrain clearance issue for the departure controller.

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Can ATC assign an airway if filed direct? Andrew Sarangan Instrument Flight Rules 26 March 4th 04 01:23 AM
Funny Radio isums... [email protected] Instrument Flight Rules 30 December 15th 03 01:34 PM
Cleared for Hire for sale Kobra Instrument Flight Rules 0 November 25th 03 04:11 PM
"Direct when able" Mitchell Gossman Instrument Flight Rules 18 October 21st 03 01:19 AM
Filing direct John Harper Instrument Flight Rules 10 October 9th 03 10:23 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.