Landout Laws

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:403bbce6$1@darkstar...
Stefan wrote:
303pilot wrote:

So, if it is an emergency when a powered aircraft loses power and is
forced
to land, why would it not also be an emergency when a sailplane is
unable to
connect to its source of power and is forced to land?

Because in a sailplane, at any given moment outlanding is just your plan
B.

I think of unplanned outlandings in the same way I think of
running out of gas in a power plane. If I had lousy fuel
gauges, and never checked the fuel levels before flight in
power planes, I'd probably only fly airplanes with excellent
glide ratios and that I could disassemble and trailer. ;(

I think whether an "outlanding" is an emergency has a lot more
to do with the pilot than the aircraft or type of activity.

For the multi-engine pilot examiners, who've landed dozens of
times with an engine that won't restart, single-engine landings
aren't emergencies, they're just "abnormal" procedures.

For our local examiner and our local 30,000 hr instructor,
who've had dozens of engine failures, this is just an "abnormal"
procedure. They always fly a profile that allows an assured
safe landing, given their experience and abilities, and
it's no coincidence that they haven't damaged an aircraft during
any of these engine failures.

For different glider pilots, I think different types of
"outlandings" may be an emergency or may be an "abnormal" procedure.

The first time I landed at an airstrip in a glider, and I hadn't
planned on landing there, it was an emergency. I didn't know
for sure if the glider would be damaged during the landing.
There were enough unknowns that I certainly was not completely
confident of an assured good outcome.

For me now, an "outlanding" at an airstrip, airport, or closed
airport I have scouted out and/or landed at before is an
"abnormal" procedure, if I hadn't planned to land there during
that flight.

Having scouted out a lot of strips (in a power plane) that looked
good from the air, and then gotten lower and said "no way I'd
ever land anything there," I'd consider landing a glider at
an unknown airstrip an emergency procedure (for me). I'd
also consider landing in a plowed field an emergency
procedure (for me). Really just because I haven't done it
before and am not completely confident and assured that
I can do it without damage. Reading and training is one thing,
doing it is another.

Carl Herold at
www.lvvsa.org/Training/LANDOUT-VER-2b.pdf
"Training: An off field landing is an unplanned emergency landing!"

If you look at his record, 2 of his first 10 X-C flights damaged
a glider during an off field landing. At 154 X-C flights, he damaged
a glider off field.

My conclusion from his record of "newbie" experience, plus my
own experiences and hangar talk, is that "newbie" glider pilots doing
early X-C should plan and execute cross-country flights so that
they land only at suitable airstrips (CH discusses this in
more detail). After a dozen+ experiences with crosswinds,
wondering if the wingspan is wider than the runway, vehicles
or other obstructions on the strip, and a few trailer and
aero-retrieves, I think a pilot then has a much better idea
what the risks and constraints are for a safe landing off field.
Will they then choose to accept that risk and
accept new landouts? Perhaps...

One seldom discussed option is to scout out the landouts in a
powered airplane. Some towplanes are insured for dual instruction
also. Take the glider pilot (or 3) along the route and land/low pass
at each airstrip and airport near home. For $100 split 3 ways,
this seems like a great preview of things to come.

61.93 requirements don't specify the X-C training for students
needs to be in a glider, so do it in a power plane instead.
More flexibility, can cover more airports in less time, and
it takes the mystery out of outlandings for newbie pilots
who've never landed anywhere but home. Then, if the CFIG
is really comfortable with the student, sign them off for
an X-C. Should you do a landing at an alien airstrip
dual first? Maybe. Results may vary...

Cross-country is fun. The SSA and others wonder why
newbies don't do it more. Simple. They've never done it
before so it's risky. We can either talk about it a lot
and wait for perfect conditions and do a lot of planning
and then struggle to fly dual and then pay for a tow
home, or:

we can just get in a dang airplane (or motorglider) and
do a "scouting" cross-country. It's worked for me...


Good post, Mark.

I have a simple XC rule. Never fly beyond safe gliding distance to a
known-safe landing site. That doesn't mean I don't go, it means I scout a
lot of landing sites from the ground. I walk them, measure them and note
the details in a little book. GPS makes this kind of expedition a lot
easier and more accurate.

There is a web site where this kind of information can be uploaded for all
to use. I plan to be sending them a lot of information and pictures. I
think everybody should. It is: http://www.airstripamerica.com/

Bill Daniels

303pilot wrote:

Aren't powered pilots required to fly at an altitude sufficient to offer a
landing option should they lose power? Isn't that just their plan B?

I don't know the regulations of your country. But I guess it depends
what you mean by "landing option".

When flying gliders, outlanding is part of the game. I always am inside
a cone of a landing field on which I can land without damaging the
glider. (Of course, there's always a risk.) This is how I've learnt it,
and it makes outlanding is a complete non event. Very easy to achieve on
flat land, not so easy in the mountains. When soaring in the mountains,
I have a catalog with the known outlanding fields with me and plan
accordingly.

On the other hand, when flying with one of those a fuel to noise
converters in the nose, all I'm looking for is to stay within gliding
distance of a landing spot which allows for a survivable landing.
Sometimes this would be better called a crash field. Otherwise, flying
in the mountains with a single engine aircraft would often not be possible.

I think this makes a difference.

Stefan

Mark James Boyd wrote:

I think of unplanned outlandings in the same way I think of
running out of gas in a power plane.

When soaring, unplanned outlandings are part of the game. Running out of
gas definitely is not.

For different glider pilots, I think different types of
"outlandings" may be an emergency or may be an "abnormal" procedure.

For glider pilots, an outlanding is neither an emergency nor an abnormal
procedure. It is a perfectly normal procedure that you have been trained
for. If it's not, you've got a lousy training and are not ready for
cross country, period.

Stefan

"Bill Daniels" wrote:


I have a simple XC rule. Never fly beyond safe gliding distance to a
known-safe landing site. That doesn't mean I don't go, it means I scout a
lot of landing sites from the ground. I walk them, measure them and note
the details in a little book. GPS makes this kind of expedition a lot
easier and more accurate.


It would be really great if you and all others that do things like
that could maybe share the textual results with others. If such
observations could be collected in put in a spreadsheet, or some other
fairly searchable form it would be of great service to all, especially
those that are unfamiliar with an area they happen to come to for a
week or so, or even are just starting to explore XC soaring.

I would be willing if no one else is to be a "translator" that is if
people send me text files, I'll put them in a spreadsheet (anyone that
would like to help....). Logical place to place them would be on the
SSA server, or at the worldwide turnpoint exchange. Failing that I can
still find some space on my server for something like that (I do not
have space for pictures, sorry, but everyone could find home for a
picture or two, and links could be published.)

Henryk Birecki

In article ,
Stefan wrote:
Mark James Boyd wrote:

I think of unplanned outlandings in the same way I think of
running out of gas in a power plane.

When soaring, unplanned outlandings are part of the game. Running out of
gas definitely is not.

I don't accept unplanned outlandings as inevitable. Carl Herold has
avoided them for a long time, by using good judgement
and doing his homework. If I had an unplanned outlanding,
I would really chalk it up to my own poor judgement, just as I would
think of running out of gas...


For different glider pilots, I think different types of
"outlandings" may be an emergency or may be an "abnormal" procedure.

For glider pilots, an outlanding is neither an emergency nor an abnormal
procedure. It is a perfectly normal procedure that you have been trained
for. If it's not, you've got a lousy training and are not ready for
cross country, period.

I haven't trained this. I never executed an unplanned outlanding
flying dual. And I'm not planning on it either...

But perhaps this is just semantics. The definition of
an "unplanned outlanding" seems quite different in the
hostile forests of Truckee, vs. the flat farmland of the Calif.
Central Valley...

On 2/25/04 2:06 AM, in article 403c579e$1@darkstar, "Mark James Boyd"
wrote:


If I had an unplanned outlanding,
I would really chalk it up to my
own poor judgement, just as I would
think of running out of gas....

Since we are talking about a state of mind (as a set of priorities), no one
can argue with that.

In competition, and even in individual practice/training, others have
priorities which allow for extending themselves beyond the assured and at
least a little way into the realm of chance.

The sailplane land out, per se, cannot be seen as equivalent to fuel
starvation in a powered plane except where pilots of both types
irresponsibly fail to consider the risks and/or act reasonably to minimize
them. The equivalence with running out of gas usually comes when the
sailplane pilot finds his planning and/or execution to be inadequate for
achieving a result to the standards of the community of which he is a
member.

When a combat pilot brings home a ship riddled with holes (or leaves it to
make a smoking hole of its own), whether or not he gets a "dumb ****" award
or an "attaboy" may depend on gun camera film or on how many "friendlies",
on the ground or in the air, owe their survival to his actions: a matter of
risks properly evaluated, priorities established, and goals achieved at an
affordable price.

Of course there are MOH citations for pilots who have gone above and beyond
in a noble cause -- many, if not most, of them rendered posthumously.
Neither SSA Badges, contest points, nor FAI records are awarded on the same
basis.



Jack

Mark James Boyd wrote:

But perhaps this is just semantics. The definition of
an "unplanned outlanding"

Maybe.

If "unplanned" means "it wasn't my intention when I started", then
unplanned outlandings are part of the game. Otherwise, you couldn't go
cross country by definition.

If however "unplanned" means "suddenly I realised that the lift was gone
and I hadn't a plan what to do now", then I agree with you. This is
unacceptable.

Stefan

Jack wrote:

When a combat pilot

Why oh why do "the" Americans (apologies to those who don't) have such
high esteem for fighter pilots, killing and war? Isn't soaring about
peace and understanding nature? And how dare you to change the subject
line to "Zen" when you talk about war?

Stefan

Sorry Mark, but Stefan is right.
Outlanding (in a field, not an airstrip) in soaring is not really planned,
but as it is part of the game it needs to be anticipated. The terrain below
you doesn't change that, it changes just the tactics of your
flight/decisions.
If you haven't been trained for it, you are not trained for x-country.
Outlandings happen because of poor judgement of yourself or of the frog
sitting at the meteo office - if they don't happen over a long time, you're
just not trying to get the max distance out of the day (which can be a
personal choice, nothing wrong with that). Remember - good judgement comes
from experience, and experience comes from poor judgements :-)
"Out"landing on an airfield is just another landing.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Mark James Boyd" a écrit dans le message de
news:403c579e$1@darkstar...
In article ,
Stefan wrote:
Mark James Boyd wrote:

I think of unplanned outlandings in the same way I think of
running out of gas in a power plane.

When soaring, unplanned outlandings are part of the game. Running out of
gas definitely is not.

I don't accept unplanned outlandings as inevitable. Carl Herold has
avoided them for a long time, by using good judgement
and doing his homework. If I had an unplanned outlanding,
I would really chalk it up to my own poor judgement, just as I would
think of running out of gas...


For different glider pilots, I think different types of
"outlandings" may be an emergency or may be an "abnormal" procedure.

For glider pilots, an outlanding is neither an emergency nor an abnormal
procedure. It is a perfectly normal procedure that you have been trained
for. If it's not, you've got a lousy training and are not ready for
cross country, period.

I haven't trained this. I never executed an unplanned outlanding
flying dual. And I'm not planning on it either...

But perhaps this is just semantics. The definition of
an "unplanned outlanding" seems quite different in the
hostile forests of Truckee, vs. the flat farmland of the Calif.
Central Valley...

On 2/25/04 3:44 AM, in article , "Stefan"
wrote:

Why oh why do "the" Americans (apologies to those who don't) have such
high esteem for fighter pilots, killing and war? Isn't soaring about
peace and understanding nature? And how dare you to change the subject
line to "Zen" when you talk about war?

Just stay safely behind your mountains and contemplate the strangeness of us
cowboys, Stefan.

We Americans respect fighter pilots because they are expected to continually
strive for the very best that can be achieved in their realm of aviation --
and a very demanding, unforgiving way of life it is, too. There are even a
few fighter pilots in Switzerland I hear. I'd bet that some of them also fly
sailplanes.

"Zen" in a subject line can't be inappropriate when the importance of clear
insight and value properly placed constitutes the true subject of a post.
Zen is never allowing attention to the means to cause you to lose sight of
the ends. Perhaps you will reread my post with that in mind.



Jack

"Zen is a religion which teaches us not to
look backward once the course is decided."

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Today's reading assignment: "The Tiger and the Hummingbird"
http://www.afa.org/magazine/valor/0285valor.asp
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