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Stall spin during aero tow? Std cirrus



 
 
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  #41  
Old August 8th 18, 03:04 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Nadler
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Default Stall spin during aero tow? Std cirrus

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 9:34:10 PM UTC-4, Tom BravoMike wrote:
On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 8:42:40 PM UTC-4, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 7:01:38 PM UTC-4, Tom BravoMike wrote:
How come nobody mentions positive faps in this discussion?
Am I missing sth? Are they useless in situations when the tug is too slow?
If so, why? Please illuminate me.


Flaps add a lot of drag. The first time I had a stall on tow,
I pulled down landing flaps, which recovered the stall and
almost put the towplane in the trees. I eased off the flap
and somehow he sped up without hitting anything.
Please do not try this at home.

Be safe out there,
Best Regards, Dave

PS: I think flaps do have the benefit of improving the lift
distribution on tow, which slightly compensates for the bad effects.


OK, so we are talking here 'nothing or everything'. Landing flaps are
on the extreme end. The Ventus manual tells you to go from '0' to '+1'
on take off if necessary (eg. with water). And yes, it does depend how
much extra power the tow plane has. The golden middle rule applies...


I was already at flaps +2 due to inadequate tow speed, L is next step...
Certainly not "all or nothing"...
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  #42  
Old August 8th 18, 03:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Default Stall spin during aero tow? Std cirrus

On Wednesday, August 8, 2018 at 5:18:26 AM UTC-7, PGS wrote:
On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 10:45:24 AM UTC-4, Steve Koerner wrote:
This subject comes up every few years on RAS and that's a very good thing. Long ago there was a death on tow with a heavily watered ship that I'm pretty sure was caused by this.

I have already posted a couple times in the past about my own near death experiences I have had dangling from a slow towplane at a remarkably low stalled tow position while slamming the stick back and forth against the stops in Ventus 1 and in ASW27. When this is happening at a very low altitude (as it was), then releasing is not an option.

Several have pointed up the necessity of communicating with the tow pilot. I think it preferable to communicate in writing. Except at contests, I always make sure that the tow pilot has been handed my written towing instruction when I have water ballast. Here's a link to my little towing instruction sheet: https://goo.gl/PwVu71


Steve, you should not assume the tow planes airspeed indicator is calibrated or accurate. You might consider modifying your note to say "minimum" or "at least" and once safely on tow ask to slow down if need be.


Another way to calibrate the speed, tell the tug to tow you as he would tow the operation's SGS 2-32.
  #43  
Old August 8th 18, 06:37 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Nadler
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Default Stall spin during aero tow? Std cirrus

On Wednesday, August 8, 2018 at 10:12:15 AM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Another way to calibrate the speed, tell the tug to tow you as he
would tow the operation's SGS 2-32.


Just last week somebody reminded me of a 2-32 stall-spin off tow
near here (several decades ago).
  #44  
Old August 8th 18, 08:42 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Default Stall spin during aero tow? Std cirrus

That is why all the operators will make sure the tow pilots know it is important tow the 2-32 at the correct speed. “Tow me at the same speed as you tow the 2-32”. If anything you will ask the tug to slow down
  #45  
Old August 8th 18, 09:24 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kirk.stant
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Default Stall spin during aero tow? Std cirrus

On Wednesday, August 8, 2018 at 2:42:39 PM UTC-5, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
That is why all the operators will make sure the tow pilots know it is important tow the 2-32 at the correct speed. “Tow me at the same speed as you tow the 2-32”. If anything you will ask the tug to slow down


Not too many 2-32s outside the USA (too bad - love that glider). As far as Pawnees, expect (again, in the US) it to have an airspeed indicator in MPH (or perhaps a dual-scale ASI), so give him your tow speed in MPH, regardless of what you have in your glider. Better for him to tow you in MPH numbers on a Knots ASI than the reverse!

And if the Pawnee about to tow you in your 11 psf waterlogged glass ship has one notch of flaps down - don't hook up until he brings them up! That's only needed for 1-26s and K-13s (lets a Pawnee tow nicely at 65-70 mph) and a possible sign that the tuggie is not quite on the ball...

Pawnee statics = cockpit static, usually. Airspeed a bit lower and altitude a bit higher in my experience, but not by much (5 mph / 100 ft)

Kirk
  #46  
Old August 8th 18, 10:11 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
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Default Stall spin during aero tow? Std cirrus

General comment, not totally related to this post.........
Most of our tug pilots are also glider pilots, tug pilot is sorta secondary.
We usually fly dry, but if we fly wet, we (glider pilot) instruct wing runner to flag tuggie that we are wet and need more speed.
I have flown out of our field heavy (ASW-20 a and c, thus 9lbs......) before with no issues.
Don't know if our field has EVER had a 2-32, I have flown a lot of ships, a 2-32 is not on the list.

Yes, a wee bit fast is better than a wee bit slow. I am a light pilot and have done XC tows from home to HHSC in a 1-26 (something like 120 air miles), yep, things got a wee bit too fast, but we were racing November weather to destination.

If you bend/break something, have a good reason when the FAA comes calling.
Hopefully you are around to chat with them.
Radios can fail or get stepped on.

Flapped ships have some options, but not unlimited.
Nonflapped have few options.
Time for go/no go is limited. When in doubt, bail out.
  #47  
Old August 9th 18, 05:17 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
GliderCZ
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Default Stall spin during aero tow? Std cirrus


Hi sorry for the thread creep
I have just Changed to a Ventus 2c after 1500 without flaps.
As briefed I roll in negative flap and change to +2 when I am sure that I
have aileron control.The tug pilot knows all this and tows me at 70+knts.
Am I now at the flap limit for positive flaps?
Last flight I was happy up to 70 but above I chose to go to 0.
Jon


Limit for any positive flap setting on V2C is 86 knots, Vfe per flight manual. Typical takeoff starts at -1, going to 0 as you get aileron authority, then +1 as you approach takeoff and throughout the tow. That's always worked for me. Takeoff and tow at+2 always required too much forward stick for me. YMMV. I think you'll enjoy the V2C. Great xc ship!

  #48  
Old August 9th 18, 08:11 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathon May[_2_]
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Default Stall spin during aero tow? Std cirrus

At 04:17 09 August 2018, GliderCZ wrote:

Hi sorry for the thread creep
I have just Changed to a Ventus 2c after 1500 without flaps.
As briefed I roll in negative flap and change to +2 when I am

sure that I
have aileron control.The tug pilot knows all this and tows me at

70+knts.
Am I now at the flap limit for positive flaps?
Last flight I was happy up to 70 but above I chose to go to 0.
Jon


Limit for any positive flap setting on V2C is 86 knots, Vfe per flight
manu=
al. Typical takeoff starts at -1, going to 0 as you get aileron

authority,
=
then +1 as you approach takeoff and throughout the tow. That's

always
worke=
d for me. Takeoff and tow at+2 always required too much forward

stick for
m=
e. YMMV. I think you'll enjoy the V2C. Great xc ship!

Thanks that helps.


 




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