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LS 4 vs ASW 20



 
 
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  #11  
Old May 20th 13, 09:33 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Papa3[_2_]
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Default LS 4 vs ASW 20

On Monday, May 20, 2013 10:30:51 AM UTC-4, WB wrote:
In article ,

Yes, the "busy" feel of the glider talking about what the air is doing.

That's my only reservation about the LS-4. It is almost too placid in

the air. I'm used to flying a 301 Libelle, the very definition of a

"busy" feeling glider. LS-4's, while extremely easy and pleasant to fly,

feel almost "dead" to me compared to my Libelle or a -20.



My preference, from flying so long with flaps, is for flapped ships.

Whenever I fly an unflapped ship, it always feels like diving at the

ground to go fast.


FWIW and not to get too far off topic, but... I found the LS4 reacted very well to CG fiddling. The sweet spot for my flying style was about 80-85% of aft limit (I liked to thermal as slow as possible and relatively steep for the typical mid-atlantic thermals). Too far forward and it just felt too sluggish/stable. YMMV.


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  #12  
Old May 20th 13, 09:40 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default LS 4 vs ASW 20

On Sunday, May 19, 2013 8:32:37 AM UTC-8, Walt Connelly wrote:
Your opinions please. Walt -- Walt Connelly


I owned a ASW 20 for a few years, and borrowed a LS4 a few times for competitions.
As others have said, both are classic excellent gliders,

But!

Flaps assist in take off, improve towing(especially with water), Make landings slower and thus safer, improve cruise, and impove thermaling,

really no contest.
  #13  
Old May 21st 13, 12:04 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Keith[_2_]
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Default LS 4 vs ASW 20

On Sunday, May 19, 2013 6:57:32 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sunday, May 19, 2013 11:32:37 AM UTC-5, Walt Connelly wrote:

Your opinions please.



Walt




Walt Connelly




I had a Minden tube ..... great trailer. Easy in/out, tows great..... the gelcoat or refinish is the money question.


I also have a Minden tube trailer, and I hate it. They are apparently not all alike. Try taking everything out of a Minden, put the ship together and put it back in. Then help someone do it with a Cobra or Comet clamshell. You will never regret springing for the better trailer.
  #14  
Old May 21st 13, 01:50 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default LS 4 vs ASW 20


I also have a Minden tube trailer, and I hate it. They are apparently not all alike. Try taking everything out of a Minden, put the ship together and put it back in. Then help someone do it with a Cobra or Comet clamshell. You will never regret springing for the better trailer.


- I can fully relate to that statement. It's one of the poorest design I had ever seen, it has no handling improvements at so ever, plus its easy to damage glider parts during rigging and de-rigging process. Replaced mine with used Cobra and regretted purchasing one in the first place - should have negotiated the price of the glider down, without the junky trailer.

GK

  #15  
Old May 21st 13, 05:16 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Uncle Fuzzy[_2_]
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Default LS 4 vs ASW 20


.... foolproof (well, almost) gear system. If it was in production now, it would be the perfect first solo glider.
While I think the LS4 is the easiest to fly glider I've ever flown, and I LOVE the control harmony and the way it 'grooves' in thermals, I have to take issue with the statement about the gear system. I believe the use of a gas spring in the gear extension system is completely insane. WHEN the gas strut fails, you will be able to RETRACT the gear perfectly. You just won't be able to lock it down. Search 'gear collapse' in RAS.
  #16  
Old May 21st 13, 03:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Yannick Bgn
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Default LS 4 vs ASW 20

On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 12:16:23 AM UTC-4, Uncle Fuzzy wrote:
... foolproof (well, almost) gear system. If it was in production now, it would be the perfect first solo glider.

While I think the LS4 is the easiest to fly glider I've ever flown, and I LOVE the control harmony and the way it 'grooves' in thermals, I have to take issue with the statement about the gear system. I believe the use of a gas spring in the gear extension system is completely insane. WHEN the gas strut fails, you will be able to RETRACT the gear perfectly. You just won't be able to lock it down. Search 'gear collapse' in RAS.


Been there, done that. Gear collapse during an outlanding due to gas strut failure. This is not a pleasant fealing

You also have to take into account the availability for the parts. As the LS4 is no longer in production, I believe you have to pay the infamous DG taxe to get support.

Yannick
  #17  
Old May 21st 13, 05:24 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
JJ Sinclair[_2_]
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Default LS 4 vs ASW 20

Both great ships. The 20 is about 50% stronger when it comes to surviving a full blown ground-loop. The gear in the 4 wont take much side loads and the cockpit has been known to open up like a can of sardines. I have repaired two of them where the canopy glass and frame broke, that allowed the cockpit sides to spread outward, leaving the pilot sitting in a pile of fiberglass rubble.
Also, any kind of clam-shell trailer is much better than any tube type trailer. You will have to bend over anytime you remove or replace the wings...............Oh, my aching back!
JJ

  #18  
Old May 21st 13, 07:01 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike the Strike
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Default LS 4 vs ASW 20

I've owned both and flown them cross-country, with perhaps 120 hours in an LS-4 and 500 in an ASW-20. If you have to land in short spaces, the 20 is the best choice hands down with its combination of strong flaps and spoilers. IMHO, the handling problems of the 20 are overblown, provided that you keep the CG in the right place and don't deploy landing flap until you're on final.

The LS-4 is unquestionably a sweet-flying ship.

I agree with other posters - I would take a nice LS-4 with good instruments and trailer over a beaten-up 20 with ratty trailer! You need to look at the whole package, but either ship could work for you.

Mike
  #19  
Old May 22nd 13, 07:26 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default LS 4 vs ASW 20

Keith & GK I'm sorry you feel so bad about your MF trailers at the time they were built 70s and 80s the Cobra bad spar fitting that let the wing fall to the floor and we was 1/2 the price, and they didn't have RO RO at the time as well
Tom Stowers
  #20  
Old May 22nd 13, 08:53 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
JS
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Default LS 4 vs ASW 20

As you have read... Both are excellent gliders.
Owned LS4 for 7 years (and LS6 for 12 years) so would be one of the happy returning customers Hr. Weber bought LS for, until DG's customer appreciation policy AKA "LS Tax" came about.
LS4 is one of the easiest gliders to get performance out of, it pretty much does what you're thinking. The 20 is a great performer, and I prefer having that extra handle.
Replacing the gas strut on the gear is like replacing the gas strut on a car's hatchback. Regular inspection, occasional maintenance.
Brakes in either LS4 or early 20 can be fixed, ie Vintage Brake in Sonora, CA. or the various disc brake mods available.
The Klappi trailer is probably only a factor if you've previously used one, sort of like automatic control hookups: What's the big deal? Oh, THAT's the big deal.
Jim
 




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